Monday, March 5, 2012

In the News - Finally

We have not been gradually altering our format. I want to have some news chat at the beginning of every episode. But it kind of has to BE news and frankly we just haven't had any. This week there was some and so we kind of partied down.

John Hardy's book ICE FREE is now available from Amazon.com and if you'll click here and buy it I think I get about eleven cents from his efforts. Not a bad deal. He's sent me the book but I haven't received it and can't say much about it one way or the other. But I like the title and concept.



But much in news. Let's see. Nissan is pushing a $9,900 ChaDemo level III charger. They are also rolling out their cars in the remaining 21 states and you can order now. Like all ever confused Nissan press releases, this one is again nonsense. You cannot order the car and you cannot order the charge station, but we love the talk.



The head of Envia took exception to our characterization of their work as derivative from Argonne National Laboratory. He did admit it was derivative but professed much effort in furthering the cathode, the anode and the electrolyte. Fair enough. No, they still are not going to produce them but they hope someone does.

We did talk about the Chevrolet Volt actually increasing sales in February to slightly over 1000 units. AFTER we edited the show on Saturday it came out that they have announced a shut down of the Volt production line from March 19 to April 23 to align output with market realities. We would be more sympathetic if these people EVER told the truth. Last June, they shut down for a month to INCREASE capacity to be able to meet demand. Or was THAT a shutdown to meet market realities.

If they shut down March 19, and don't restart April 23rd, what - another press release? These people have forfeited all credibility to a public that is contemplating the second large expenditure of their life after a house. How can you set yourself up in an adversarial relationship BASED on lies and expect to thrive at $42,999 a pop? I just don't get it. I know these guys went to college and learned how to dress and all that. Clearly they GET to work somehow, either finding their own way or perhaps with the aid of a spouse or child. I don't know. How hard can it be with billions in resource (from us) to NOT look stupid in public at least while failing.?

BMW is looking more serious all the time. We loved their i3 and i5 commercial shot in Chicago. This is some creative thinking. What if an electric car did NOT try to mimic the look of an ICE car but looked like itself? Carbon fiber?

Barrack Obama gave a speech where he started to sound like he understood part of the energy thing so I ran it. We got some heat on YouTube, which doesn't really contribute much to our viewership frankly although now I am hosting the BLOG version on YouTube and it works pretty well. Probably do 900 views or so per week on Youtube and about 6000 on the blog and about the same 6000 on the web. The complaint was that we were becoming political.

Ahem. WE always WERE political. We announced at the outset that I ALREADY HAVE A CAR thank you but that we were launching a global movement and looking for 100,000 guys to join us. What part of this do you fail to comprehend? I want YOU to go to your garage, sweep out a space about the size and shape of a car, build one there, and get in and drive it away. Then show it to everyone who'll listen while you tell them how cool the thing really is. WHAT PART OF THIS HAVE WE BEEN COY ABOUT? And if you don't want to do that, get off my blog and quit watching my videos. It's expensive for me.

Lest you be confused, we are ALL ABOUT political. Oh I don't go on to much about particular elections or candidates as it is generally polarizing and rarely has anything to do with OUR political movement, which is of course to take over the world with electriic cars one freakin car at a time. I guess I think some of you do not believe this can be done or don't believe I can do it or are pretty sure there is some other agenda. There isn't.

Yes, we are trying to find oxygen to make it go. And we assumed that those who would be most eager to help us would be the component vendors who we were naturally and indeed directly helping them sell their products. False economy is not thrift. It is just the stupidity of the lame and the halt. Had an interesting if negative conversation by e-mail with one vendor I found shocking and so for the moment, I've fired them all. No more advertising.

Still not sure where that leaves us, but you can lead a horse to water, if he just won't drink it, drop him with a bullet to the head and get a REAL man's horse that drinks WHISKEY.

Of course the main theme this week is the Escalade. Brain has removed the front clip and the intake manifold and we're actually ready to pull the engine. The week before last, Brain was out ALL WEEK with a horrible viral stomach flu that is going around here in Cape. This week it looks like its my turn on the throne. So I don't know what we'll be getting done this week.

We did get a dozen of our meters out this week. I have 20 more supposedly arriving the week of the 12th. You can now sign up on the web site store to receive an e-mail notification when they arrive.

The flatenem series continues and I have two layers done. Ordered some aluminum angle and so forth to try to put some of this together. Haven't' known exactly where I was going with this. Received an e-mail yesterday from our friend Brian Andersson at B&B Manufacturing in Granby. Recall that he was making a SECOND eCobra for Aptima motors out of molytube and carbon fiber. Claims the body is 30 lbs total and the frame is about 200 lbs instead of 500.

Better, he tells me he is going to try to put together a carbon fiber bodied speedster with molytube frame. I don't know what it is going to cost, or what it is going to weigh, but I've provisionally told him to put us down for one if it is at a cost that would make any sense at all to our viewers. I'm picturing a super lightweight speedster with the A123 flatenem series underneath as the SOLE battery pack. If the car is much lighter and we mate it with a 180 lb pack, then the overall weight and thus energy requirements should go down. I'm aiming for a flatenum series car with 35 mile range to 100%, only it actually goes FIFTY miles on a charge with a per mile energy usage down around 150. Probably not doable. But we'll see. It would be a whole new thing for us in minimalist electric car.

Jack Rickard

76 comments:

  1. Replies
    1. We asked for tranparency and we got it.

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  2. Jack,

    Did the head of Envia really contact you? I'm impressed! I can just hope when they find someone to produce the cells they will let the ev builders buy them at the much reduced price that they are saying they can be manufactured for.

    Keep up the good work as you will change the world, one build at a time.

    Randy

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    Replies
    1. No, he viewed my blog where he left comments which I made Jack immediately aware of. You and everyone else can see the exchange here: http://engineergreen.blogspot.com/2012/03/envia-battery-technology-aargon_04.html

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  3. EVs have the potential to change the world.

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  4. Hi Jack,

    Hope that you are feeling better!

    Could you share how you are thinking you might restaining your cells from movement in the front to back directions as well as the side to side directions. I would think that any movement would not be friendly to the tabs. Maybe you are thinking to pot them like you did on the vertical packs.

    Just curious.

    Thanks, Karl

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  5. Messy as it looks, I actually think Carlos Ghosn's strategy is coming together pretty well, as you and I have opined elsewhere.

    The Leaf is a baby step. The car makes little sense, and its fine for the early adopter market that's price supported and not terribly cost sensitive, and it gives them a manufacturing and unit base before the curtain really goes up.

    The car to watch is the Taxi of Tomorrow in NYC. (Not the half dozen Leaf test cars going into service this spring, but the new fleet of NV200 cars next fall.) The CHAdeMO chargers are a critical piece of this brave new infrastructure- the taxi pools at the airports, and strategic cab stands all over the city will be so equipped. That makes a BEV taxi completely viable in a place like NYC, where the average taxi trip is 2.8 miles with almost 5 minutes of time stopped. Ten minutes at a CHAdeMO taxi stand should be good for a bunch of those trips.

    Similarly, the Citroen Belingo and Renault Kangoo small delivery vehicles are edging closer to market in places where fuel is about double what it is in the US. With the CHAdeMO charger, a florist food delivery truck is equally viable. I really like this strategy, which is aimed at high-frequency short haul very light commercial vehicles, just the place (with $7 fuel) where a modest premium for electric drive, and a $10k fast charger spread across a bunch of vehicles, starts to make bottom line sense.

    Unlike GM's strategy of chasing a skeptical consumer with a product that fundamentally makes little sense, Renault/Nissan seems to be quietly closing in on a few key markets where their products are an excellent fit, and might just be enough for early adoption. This strategy only looks confused because the parts that are arriving are a little out of sequence, and they led with the consumer version, which is actually a side show to the market segment they're locked onto.

    I'll make two related predictions: First, the NV200 will be the Checker Cab of this century; and second, CHAdeMO blasts will be sold in Manhattan, curbside, by the New York Minute...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. it would be good if he priced it according to cost. 35k$ is just ridiculous.
      a 10k$ empty roller, 7200$ battery, 500$ motor, 1000$ power electronics. sell it for 23.
      35 has no future and doesn't get anywhere

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    2. Dan have you built an EV? There is a lot more that goes into it. How about Heat/AC, air bags. If you would be willing to sell an EV for $25,000 I think you will have people knocking at your door.

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    3. I like the quote from Dan Neil in the film "Revenge of the Electric Car". "Carlos Ghosn doesn't get up in the morning unless there's money in it." Ghosn isn't going to let the SAE dictate what a fast charger is going to be. And he isn't going to let the SAE obsolete his star product. He is going to strike and force progress in his direction. The $10K quick charger is a prime example of pure strategy.

      Personally I like the idea of the CHAdeMO having a separate plug for quick charging. Trying to make one plug do everything is an antiquated idea and that is what doomed the AVCON plug. By the time you got everything in it it was big and unwieldy. Just don't get me started on the flaw in the J1772 standard.

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  6. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  7. Politics. From the root words Poly, meaning many and Ticks, meaning blood sucking creatures. I'm sorry, but it's very newsworthy to post about ANY politician who even shows the slightest hint about getting the message. Whether he or she is liked or not. Keep up the good work Jack and Brian.

    - Doc

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  8. Jack,

    On the flatenem pack you might consider using a piece of the aluminum honeycomb material on the bottom to support the weight. Of course electrical shorts would have to be avoided, but a layer of high density polyethylene would do that and be cheaper than the polycarbonate.

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    1. My thought is to make the Flatenem pack a structural element much as others have done. One sheet of ~.063" 6065 aluminum on top of the A-123's and another below. Use the polycarbonate in short strips to isolate the electrical connections from the aluminum as it's not as good as the aluminum under compression or extension. (Polycarbonate also expands and contracts quite a bit with temperature, something to keep in mind when it comes to flexing the tabs on the A-123's.) Put spacers every 8 to 10 inches in a grid to secure the top aluminum sheet to the bottom sheet. Use 3/16" to 1/4" aluminum bar stock along the edges to enclose it. Better yet, form the ends of the aluminum sheets to make a tub once assembled. Stick it all together with dabs silicone adhesive, Jack might prefer some casting material, and provide access holes in the aluminum to probe the parallel sets of batteries. Once done Jack should be able to suspend it between a couple of 4 X 4's and stand on it.

      No $$ honeycomb aircraft aluminum decking needed since that's what I just described except with A-123's packed between the honeycomb.

      Delete
  9. If Envia has a working prototype battery and wants to sell the IP for the battery in the form of a License, do you think it will be built here?

    I expect not. The only EV batteries I'm aware of planned for U.S. production are those yet to be build by Nissan in Tenn.

    What do you want to bet, the batteries will be build in China and exported to the U.S. by Trading Companies?

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  10. Envia are not the only people working on better anodes (silicon and tin are favourites). Great electrochemically but the volume changes during intercalation, so a few cycles pulverises the anode. http://mp.ipme.ru/e-journals/RAMS/no_12711/kamali.pdf is a review by Kamali and Fray at Cambridge: http://mp.ipme.ru/e-journals/RAMS/no_12711/kamali.pdf.

    There is a very interesting graph on page 18 of cycle life of one experimental tin/carbon anode battery showing a totally flat curve after about 20 cycles.

    Fray is working with Morgan (previously Morgan Crucible) on this (http://www.enterprise.cam.ac.uk/news/2011/6/university-researchers-partner-morgan-amt-develop-/) It is all still unobtanium but Morgan are a serious company and if I had any to invest in this sort of thing that is the direction I'd go.

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    Replies
    1. I did not mean to imply that Envia was not a serious company, nor that their work was trivial. But it's been around for some time, and I see little new beyond a press release.

      They do not manufacture batteries and have professed no plans to, and generally characterize a product by others as being 1.5 to 3 years away variously. I was hearing from people who wanted to know how to order these now. There is no manufacturer. It is fluff.

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  11. Could this battery A123 32157 be interesting in EV conversions? About 8Ah with screws instead of floppy tabs for terminals…

    Maybe would be most suitable for my intended application in less then 4 wheels light EVs: bicycle electrifications and EV mopeds. I asked for more data, and will share the findings if anyone shows interest.

    Perhaps could be used in a hybrid battery pack with other A123 modules, in order to sculpture a transmission tunnel fitting energetic item, or some other sell accessible curvy space of the vehicular body.

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  12. Flatenum might be better supported with fiberglass honey comb sheet. They use it on aircraft floors, its stiff, does not decay and light. It can of course be "glassed" into boxes making it even stiffer and stronger.

    Downside? Price, and might make it thicker.
    =========================================
    20AH, A123's. Have take delivery of these and can see why slitting correx to retain the edges will not work. too much variability in size and thickness. These are definitively better off lying down.

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    Replies
    1. Here is a source on a variety of honeycomb sheeting...
      http://panelteccorp.reachlocal.com/coupon/?scid=204540&cid=620361&tc=10091517383301823&rl_key=1c3b9535a0dc586f6d78330f712a6b28&kw=947155&dynamic_proxy=1&primary_serv=panelteccorp.reachlocal.net

      Delete
    2. Using honeycomb sheeting is just a waste of space unless, perhaps, it's used for insulation. Just put a sheet of sheeting above and below the pack, tie them together with spacers and you'll have a structurally strong battery pack.

      Delete
    3. Klaus,
      This stuff is used for aircraft flooring, insulation is added underneath. Best stuff, no argument. 5mm too thick? Then there is the no-weight issue... ;)

      Two sheets of plastic need to be tied torsionally to stop flexing. However, one sheet of this (10mm). Bolt it up to the floor. Job done. No top sheet no waste of volume.

      Mark, yes!
      Due to bolting, non-metallic is needed. eg.
      http://www.ecfibreglasssupplies.co.uk/p-577-nidaplast-10mm.aspx

      It can be epoxied and/or glassed into structural boxes.

      Delete
  13. I do think that hand laid fiberglass would be a good choice for the Flatenum pack. It won't save any money over the poly and it will take longer to make, but offers some mechanical advantages.

    I could see a mold that has recessed pockets for the batteries and foam core around the edges to make up for the thickness of the batteries for stacking layers. That way you could seal the pack layers with simple RTV silicone. A few dabs could also be used to stabilize the batteries. A few layers wrapped around the foam core would be quite strong and stiff.

    The only problems I see for the Poly sheets is that it tends to crack around the drilled holes when assembled in compression. It is a strong material (primarily designed to resist impact) but it does flex a lot. Your idea of an aluminum angle frame should help minimize this risk of cracking....

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Jeff,
      You are correct about the holes developing cracks from the stresses created by the bolts through a thermo-plastic like a poly-carbonate.
      What is commonly done to mitigate the problem of localized stress on the holes is to use a bigger washer perhaps with some form of a compressible washer between the washer and the sheet thermo-plastic.

      Delete
    2. One can also drill the holes oversize for the screw and insert a metal sleeve to handle the compression. This is a common practice in automotive applications.

      Delete
  14. Hello Jack and all EV friends,

    I made some basic work and three videos about it. I hope you like it, and it can help somehow sometime.

    RPM test with the Soliton1 WarP9 and the Rechargecar Speed Sensor
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXmelRFPLtQ&feature=plcp&context=C36cebc1UDOEgsToPDskJsQcFJzF7XOIbLnnHEUFdG

    Warp9 Disassembly
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxRYY6s67fY&feature=plcp&context=C3471b67UDOEgsToPDskJOPT-ucWTsSyecHrho4daJ

    JLD404 Intelligent AH Meter with Relay Contact Output test run.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc8Bxpp5fbA&feature=plcp&context=C34b9308UDOEgsToPDskKlhUAtE4eLhTYk9rIvDRsU

    Regards
    Mathieu

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. ohne unterbung

      Great videos!

      I hope that everyone watches them.

      Thanks

      Delete
    2. This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
    3. Mathieu, you just earned an extra credit for dismantling perfectly operative motor, only for the record, to show us. I find it as impressive as what Jack is doing. Inquiring minds and generosity at work.

      Delete
  15. Nenad,
    I agree.

    For the delicate people.
    You did mean "Selflessness"? ;))

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    Replies
    1. (blush emoticon) Thanks Andyj, … "absence of selfishness" was supposed to read in my comment. In order to correct it I believe I found even more appropriate term.

      Delete
    2. I bet I dropped more grammatical bloopers than you ;)
      ===================================
      Just checking those A123's... Boring!

      "We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard,"!!!!

      Delete
  16. Jack,

    To connect the throttle body and evnetics throttle, it may be a good play to just turn to our RC buddies yet again.

    http://smartechrcparts.com/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=913

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. A link pin? And what do we do with it?

      I'm staring at this thing without a clue. I've removed the butterfly plate and have an axle with a slot in it that turns. How to link that artfully to the shaft of the pot is beyond me.

      I still don't quite understand why I can't steal the signal from the cable if I can identify it.

      Jack Rickard

      Delete
    2. The link pin would be fine for a few degrees of movement as needed on the swashplate of a RC chopper or the like but not good for the 90 or so degrees needed here. I'd remount the servo on a L bracket, or cut up the existing throttle body, and connect the two shafts together with a fixed or flexible coupling as can be found looking up "shaft coupling" on McMaster-Carr. If it's not a 1-1 ratio, I'd consider techniques similar to ye-old string & dial tuning mechanisms used on radios of yesteryear.

      Being a servo, it probably needs not only an incoming position signal but also and outgoing position signal for it to function properly. Sure, it could probably be done with a little processor but you'd have to figure out what it's looking for. It sure would be a lot more elegant!

      Delete
    3. Jack! Just had another rummage on 'net.
      There is a pot in your pedal and a position pot in your throttle body.
      http://www.aa1car.com/library/tps_sensors.htm

      http://www.chevythunder.com/ls1_page_1.htm

      http://www.aa1car.com/library/throttle-by-wire.htm

      Wiring of plug:
      http://www.chevythunder.com/drive_by_wire.htm#2003-2008 Throttle Body

      Could you simply connect across your pedal? forget that servo. Be careful.

      Those throttle bodies fetch $700+ new!

      Delete
    4. Interesting...

      IF the TPS is a pot AND the throttle signal to the motor controller is isolated from the signal to the TPS THEN the TPS pot could be used to control the motor controller as well. Just wire it as though the TPS signal weren't there since they are isolated from one another. You'd have to make sure the pot can handle the extra power it will need to dissipate.

      Delete
    5. I meant to add, the advantage of doing this way is that it keeps the throttle servo loop intact, probably saving some ECU headaches. Doing it at the TPS instead of the pedal also keeps any traction control system, etc., operational.

      Delete
  17. Maybe disconnect the servo from the butterfly and mount it to the throttle axle?

    Have read somewhere, some electric bikes are, or have model aircraft throttles for their controllers. Could this mean a small software patch to connect ones digital car throttle to directly use the controller?

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  18. Plastics prices are crazy!

    This may be of help for peeps who want to fabricate CHEAP plastic boxes and the likes - If this material is truly uPVC.

    Was looking up 8mm plastic initially for cell tab spacers and came across ordinary household fascia and soffit boards.

    For example, 300mm x 10mm x 5000mm (1'x3/8"x16') solid soffit upvc for £20 ($30). i.e.

    Hollow soffits. Much lighter, ~$10, just as stiff, various widths and can be used where applicable.

    This stuff can be solvent glued as used by plumbers for plastic fittings with no effort at all. I'll be testing a piece.

    For ~8mm I'm stuck with this. ie.:
    http://www.directplastics.com/upvc-fascia-boards/white-fascia-boards/9mm-white-cappit-fascia.

    These have ready made nice corners for boxes and available in black, Jack.

    This is not "flatenum" structural like say, Nidaplast sheets are but everything has its place ;)

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  19. Steal the throttle signal but leave module intact to send the position sensor feedback the ECU expects.

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  20. Why connect them together at all. It looks like that throttle is electrically driven for position so all you do is feed a signal into the throttle body that actuates the throttle position servo. Then just use the position signal. You should in effect be able to mount that throttle body anywhere. So your TPS gives the signal to the throttle body and you tap off the throttle body to the controller and the other signals are already for you to use from the throttle body.

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  21. Kudos on the new uploaded video Jack. Nice looking young women showing the cool charge stations (ooooops) EVSE.


    Thank you.

    Pete :)

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  22. Thanks for the link Cory, that's interesting.

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  23. Re: Envia. I'm not so sure such pessimism is warranted. OK, it probably is. But, think about that electrolyte for a second. If it is compatible with any of the other lithium battery chemistries out there, we could see rapid advances in energy density very quickly (18-24m). Their website says the electrolyte is stable to 5.2v. As a hypothetical, imagine the energy density of the A123 pouch cells you are getting now, if you could safely charge to 5.2V? OK, yes, this is pure pie in the sky thinking as we have no idea about the compatibility, but it's definitely pretty intriguing. You can break down Envia's developments into three main camps: electrolyte, anode, and cathode. Each of these could be licensed to one or more actual manufacturers tomorrow. Anode and cathode could take a few years to get up to mass production, scalability, and cycle life, but the electrolyte could be good to go today. Or not:/

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. MLIM,

      The EnerDel T-HE cells made 15KWH in a single string under a metre long but only very slightly larger than an A123 and at the time cheaper. They were in production. Go get them.

      You can't.

      Delete
    2. What pessimism?

      It is what it is. This is an IP licensing company with some laboratory and prototype testing results. Three years from lab to the street is so hilariously optimistic you will never hear anyone call them on it.

      This is a GOOD thing. It is progress in the batteries. IT's not only theoretically possible, but it is being done - in the lab.

      I was getting input from people that were going to hold off their project waiting for these batteries that would be here in a month or two. Not quite.

      And the press release really did present itself way off the mark. It was an over the top release meant to garner some attention, which it did, but there is NO imminent product. They do not have ANY licensees with production plans.

      But its all good. Battery progress is a good thing. And we hope 400 wH/kg happens sooner than later.

      Of course, I like IBM's lithium air battery work too at 11,000 wH/kg. I like the nano whisker silicon anodes. I like all of it.

      Jack Rickard

      Delete
  24. just a thought, for next conversion it could be a nissan versa budget conversion to demonstrate just how overpriced the Leaf is. and overweight.

    another possibility is a 6000$ porsche boxster that Brian could get when it's done. they are quite cheap used these days. might be a car type he'd like : ) give it some dragster performance perhaps. 90kg A123, a single 9 and 1000amps should do the trick.

    ReplyDelete
  25. Dan:

    You promised. Off your meds again.

    Nissan Versa - $19,000.

    Parts - $17,500.

    Total, $36,500 with NO labor and a Xantrex for instrumentation.

    Boy we showed them up eh?

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    Replies
    1. if I check nissan usa with area code 90210, I get the base price of a versa sedan 1.6S of 10990$
      add 500$ Zibo forklift motor (motors you could sell from china)
      180 A123 cells at 20$ which is 3600$ (60s3p 200V)
      Cougar controller kit 600$
      say 3000 for DCDC charger and vacuum pump

      that comes to 18200$ total.
      and with a bit of development work you can cut 1-2000 off that price.
      and or give it 5 second acceleration.

      to have same range you might need 2-3000$ more in batteries.

      Delete
    2. Go with the Porsche, and forget the value proposition.

      Delete
    3. The Leaf has a 27KW pack which lies under the floor and between the rear wheels with possibly half the volume of an equivalent LiFePo4 setup.. This compares with your 10KWH. Nissans motor is a super quiet ac unit that needs no gearbox. The dashboard electronics are something that leaves many far more expensive cars, lacking.

      The difference in Leaf/Versa weight is 700lb. The Leafs battery/controller/charger unit weighs 600lb and the motor would not shame *any* car at well over 100hp.

      Why don't you include S&H+ import duty+ VAT in your costs? Why don't you include the sundries you have to pay for? This really adds up!

      You go prove us wrong Dan. I'll pre-guarantee a major fail.

      Andrew

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    4. Andrew:'

      The only way you can FAIL is if you DO something. It is much more comfortable to knowledgeably comment on what OTHERS should be doing. This is Dan's speciality.

      He's not about to DO anything. Because it might not work then.

      I'm almost the complete reverse. If I KNOW how it is going to turn out and that it is going to work, I really don't have much interest in doing that. What's the point?

      Jack

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    5. Not meaning to be awful to Dan but he does invent the wheel without considering the issues of bearings, bosses, spokes rims and tires.
      If he did this, he seems to miss the point on what the wheel is for. Large cartwheels are barely useful for cornering and quads fail with go-kart tires.

      You are right Jack, there is no point in taking a perfectly normal car and spending more than its life's running cost.

      It's a hobby. A great thing to have for kit cars and specials and once done, there is the ride...
      ============================
      Jack, you had issues with the cycle analyst? I'm playing with one now and I like it! Just playing on laptop now I've connected it. UDEV in linux is new to me and eating my brain! The connector has no serial number so I don't know how to tie it down to an easy place to read. After that, the math and clocks should be less of an issue written in REBOL.

      Delete
    6. It's in, "/dev/ca" entry ;)
      One step at a time.

      Andrew

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  26. Andrew, bulk shipping is very cheap, the point is simply how overpriced a Leaf is. not that hand building each one is a better approach in general. indeed that strengthens the point. it should be entirely impossible to do one offs for less than factory.
    you might also take the cost of all the ICE junk into account that's included in the price of the versa.
    and I believe the official Leaf pack size is 24. not 27. and what I suggested is closer to 12 than 10. and I left it an option to expand the pack to have the same range as the Leaf and still be a lot lighter than the Leaf.
    the base versa sedan weighs 1067kg. with 200kg A123 pack I'd guess it ends around 1200kg. vs some unknown weight of the Leaf above 1500.
    with the small pack I suggested it would be around 1100. which means that all things being equal you go a lot further for your battery money than with obese 1535.
    Cd of the versa is listed as 0.31 vs Leaf 0.29

    but what do I know..

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    Replies
    1. They are very easy to come by in the fantasy world.

      Hard won and hard come by in the real world.

      Stay on your meds Dan.

      Delete
  27. All vehicles brand new are worth up to 3X~5x more as parts. It's selling them that is the issue.

    I recommend a ride in a Leaf. It's amazingly quiet and posh but I'd crash it with all the fancy buttons to twiddle with. They really are that good! But a boring, safe family bet. So why?

    Your fork lift truck motor will easily weigh as much as an ICE alone and its not made to rev.

    Dan, make an electric bike. Knock yourself out, have fun. you have the motor. Maybe a quad? Plenty of busted motors there.

    Got the Cycle Analyst writing data onto the laptop properly.. Now to understand how to split a string of numbers into separate variables. Then the clocks!

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  28. Jack - one TV piece that would be interesting if you had time and inclination is handling the interface with the electronics in modern cars (Mini and Escalade). Do you keep the ECU and spoof the sensor inputs to fool the car that it still has a piston engine running up front, or can you break into the CAN bus and start manipulating the behaviour directly?

    I hope my summer project will be a late-model Civic (son thinks that the UK wedge-variant is uber-cool) and this is the bit that worries me most.

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  29. some eastern europeans who impatiently remove the combustion engine : )
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=V5V9gGzx1w4#t=32s

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    1. Thanks for the video. I hurt my sides laughing :)

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  30. Jack - just watched the 9 March show. Very good: and you actually talked about exactly the kind of thing I had in mind in my post 2 up asking about interfacing with modern electronics

    As ever, many thanks

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  31. What I found different liked very much in the 9 March show is the 4 minutes address "generalelectric100 1280". I believe it is the format common audience can digest. I believe it is the way to go Jack, in order to draw attention to EV and EVTV.

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  32. Hey Jack,

    Have you checked out this website lately? It came out nice in red.

    http://www.bandbroadster.com/electric-cars.htm

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    1. Oooeerr! its advertised on youtube with a 263 Watt electric motor which puts it firmly in e-bike territory.

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    2. ...AND it is the "most powerful all electric sports car in the world" according to the video! ;-)

      Thanks for the link Randy. It's nice to see what it looked like when painted and with the exhausts back on.

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  33. Jack - Love the 9 March show and concur with John Hardy. One question I had is this: do you-or anyone else in the forum- know of anyone using a CVT in their builds? it seems to be the trend in small to midsize sedans to move from a normal automatic transmission to the constant velocity transmission in the quest for ever higher MPG ratings. If this is so good for an ICE, would it work for a 9 or 11 inch motor without tearing it apart? My wife wants a car with an automatic, but I have no desire to attempt anything as big (or as expensive) as your Elescalade.

    BTW, I bought Ice Free from your link and will send a review as soon as i get it and read through it. Since I am the definition of a complete newbe, the rest of your viewers may find it useful from that perspective.

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    1. Brian,
      We once all had a good chinwag on Jacks blog over transmissions. Forget CVT unless its made for the rpm/torque you have.
      Go for a vehicle with a diesel. They are built closer to similar rpm and torque.
      Adjust the controller to soften the output power 'ramp up rate' so no shock loads break the transmission.

      With most ev's you can put them in "a gear" and leave it. No need to use the clutch for starting and stopping, the motor simply stops with you.

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    2. Brian and Andyj.
      Or...One could take a first gear planetary http://www.jegs.com/p/TCI/TCI-Low-Gear-Planetary/753649/10002/-1

      run it in the inverse direction, machine an enclosure with custom shafts between the series wound dc motor and the fly wheel. These series wound motor achieves their maximum horsepower below 2500 r.p.m., but with the 2.75 to one planetary it becomes 6875 r.p.m. with proportionally less torque.
      Look at the performance of a Morgan Plus E with only 70kw of power @ 6000 r.p.m. for a 2750 pound car. I would suggest that 6,000 r.p.m. is the maximum horsepower of the i.c.e. for the 5 speed transmission that the Morgan Plus E uses. http://www.gizmag.com/something-old-something-new-the-morgan-plus-e/21736/pictures#12
      I wish somebody would step up to the plate and do this.

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    3. Brian, I know nothing about these people, I ran upon this UTube post maybe 6 months ago and it is related to your question.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNIcRF2suVI

      DC

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    4. Mark,
      Yes! They would make a great bolt on accessory to reduce the torque and up the effective rpm.

      A great business opportunity for Dan.

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  34. Regarding A123 battery temperature under load - this might be interesting:
    http://www.sae.org/mags/AEI/10681

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    1. Michal, Thanks for that. The 4C thermal picture beggars the question how the tabs were connected. It looks to me on the last 5mm. (1/4").

      Thermals do matter. Mine will be mounted upside down. hehehe.

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  35. On CVT transmissions, my Honda Insight has a CVT and is designed to work with an ICE engine that stops all the time and has a series 10kW electric motor. It's pretty torquey off the line for a 1.3L engine when it has full electric assist. Can probably handle a 100kW electric motor (with a low slope current ramp). The ICE plus electric package is rated at 90kW peak.

    CVT gives you efficiency (no TQ converter) and ability to idle the engine for anciliaries like A/C without a clutch.

    I'm wondering how difficult it would be to bin the ICE, replace the flywheel pancake motor with a 100kW electric motor and replace the 6Ah NiMH battery with a big LiFePO4 pack. The problem is the amount of computers on the car controlling everything (especially the ECU and Transmission Control Unit, that talk to each other). The ECU even controls the engine based on the humidity in the cabin (tied into the ventilation and A/C)!

    A bit more seriously, I'm also talking to a friend who is considering converting his old Ford Galaxy 7 seater to electric. He needs a new car but rather than sell/scrap the Galaxy he wants to try a conversion. We can always scrap the car if it goes horribly wrong :D

    The Galaxy has a big flat loading area for the batteries (if we take out the rear-most row of seats). It also has a regular 5 speed manual transmission.

    Being a 7 seater, it already has built up suspension for people, so hopefully can take the weight of batteries without mods.

    He's not precious about looks (it's a beater anyway) and it might be cool to show off the battery box in the back of the car. It will still be able to seat 4/5 with the rear-most seats taken out.

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