Tuesday, December 20, 2011

The Mentos and Coke Powered ELEscalade

More Swallow. More Elescalade. We've decided to abandon the electric powered ELEScalade concept and go with a new rocket powered package from EEPYBIRD that uses Mentos and Coca Cola.

The Elescalade we begin populating the large battery box in the back with 57 cells of 400 AH. These 400 Ah cells weigh 29 lbs each for 1653 lbs. With straps and cables and box, probably more like 1725 lbs. It does squat the ELEscalade down on its haunches.

But that also gives us 76380 watt-Hours of power.

The Elescalade has a curb weight of 5800 lbs and a gross of 7200 lbs. We're going to be over gross at 7550lbs and with an additional 1000 lbs of people meat, QUITE over gross.

Our 10:1 rule normally serves us very well and that would seem to indicate 750 to 850 watt-Hours per mile or a little under 100 miles range.

But we think we will do both MUCH better than that, and much worse than that, with this vehicle.

We haven't done much with this, as we have little to test with and some problems. The Rhinehart Motion Systems Controller has never achieved sufficiently consistent operation to offer any useful testing on the 2009 Mini Cooper Clubman. We have another vehicle, a 2007 Ford Edge in the 5000 lbs class offering perhaps more direct experience with an automatic. BUt this conversion was so badly done from the beginning - we kind of inherited it from Arnulf Larsgard when he folded his Iowa plans, that we've barely been able to get it into operation.

But we have noticed and more or less confirmed anecdotally a remarkable inversion in these higher weight vehicles. The Mini Cooper is 3550 lbs while the Ford Edge is over 5000. And accelerating that mass turns out to be hard work. In town, the Edge can use as much as a kilowatt hour per mile. The MiniCooper is more like 400 wH per mile.

But on the freeway, where wind resistance always cuts down our mileage on the light cars, things take a dramatic turn. The Mini Cooper drops from about 1.15 Ah per mile (420 watt hours) to 0.85 Ah per mile (310 watt hours/mile) at 70 mph on the freeway. Similarly, the Edge with the automatic transmission drops down to about 400 watt hours per mile.

This is a little counterintuitive. I don't think it is because they are so very efficient on the freeway. I think it is because they are so very INeffecient in town. Accelerating that much mass is just expensive. When you quit doing it, mere air resistance can't by comparison compete.

So we think we'll have something like 70 mile range in town. But will probably be able to drive the 120 miles to St. Louis rather easily in the ELEscalade. And it's six speed 6L80E transmission with a pretty serious overdrive in sixth gear could in fact extend that phenomenon quite all out of bounds.

The truck will no doubt be heavy.






There is a subtle point of temperature that might be worth stressing at this point. It was observed by the official BMW Mini Cooper electric program which I find interesting.

The presumption on battery cells is that they must be thermally controlled for safety and to avoid thermal runaway somehow and a fire. Our experience is that cell heat just has NOT been an issue and when we do make provisions for it, they are largely wasted.

That view is largely shared by BMW - with the corollary that we've also noticed - a decrease in performance in the cold. We've done little to quantify this. The listed 10-15% is so much smaller than the penalty with Pb chemistry cells that we almost celebrate it. But it is very real.

Then too, the LiFePo4 cells we use all seem to indicate NOT to charge below freezing - 32F or 0C. Truthfully, I thought this was a typo when I first saw it and although I've requested additional information on this perhaps a dozen times from various vendors, nobody has any specifics as to why this is or even whether it is.

But the Mini Cooper guys noticed that on some days of chill, their range fell below what was comfortable for their use. That's pretty serious. And they are talking about what they HOPE to see in the new electrics from BMW.

Mostly this revolves around battery thermal management but really HEAT. They want heated batteries.

And with batteries representing quite a mass, it is really better to START warm than to GET warm. So we're doing something really quite similar in the ELEscalade.

In a past show we detailed our electric "heater". This is made from a home tankless water heater of some 24 kW capacity. With our 190v DC pack, we're probably looking at 14 kW with TWO tanks and heaters really. So we will be able to warm our water using a pair of heaters in small tanks, and at some temperature cut out one of the heaters and at a second temperature cut out the other. As temp falls, the "other" would cycle back on. And so we can heat quickly, and then drop our energy use to "maintain" temperature.

This is part of a glycol water system that will be pumped through our cabin heat exchanger so WE can be toasty warm first. But then it will go through our battery box which would represent a pretty deep heat sink if it were cold soaked.

So we're going to make sure it isn't. We're going to have a second system that is made of small rubber flexible heating pads that will attach to the tanks. They operate on 240 vac and are a couple hundred watts each.

These "gentle" heaters will be fed the same 240 as the battery charger, and at the same time. Additionally, we will switch the 12v pumps on when charging. We'll qualify that with a "season" switch so it only happens in winter, not in summer. Or perhaps automatically with a thermostat.

In this way, when you plug your car in at the end of the day to charge it, the warmth will be maintained all night. Because of the continuous or lengthy nature of this, we want a fairly small and gentle heat in this case. The urgency is not so much to save power as we are on our wall AC, but recall that we only have to maintain it above freezing for the batteries and then of course for our comfort in the morning. A couple of hundred watts should do it if it is on all night.

Again, the mission of the ELEscalade is to be warm and toasty in the winter and cool in the summer. Actual motion is a secondary criteria on this build. And performance and range almost not even a consideration.
Oh, I suppose it's always a consideration, but secondary for this build.


In any event, it's a bit of fun to be underway and putting together the battery pack. The large terminals and M14 bolts and Nordlocks are interesting. MANLY battery connections. Speaking of which. EVWorks in Australia had these 55 mm braided copper straps listed for 400Ah Thundersky cells and we bought a bunch of them. We've had them sitting around for eight or nine months. They have a much larger terminal bolt hole of course to accommodate the much larger M14 cap screw, as compared to the M8 or 8 mm diameter terminal screw we normally use on the smaller cells.

Unfortunately, they don't work. These cells are not on 55 mm centers, but rather 67.5 mm centers. So they are too short. Incredibly, EVWorks threw us TOTALLY under the bus. While acknowledging the mistake, their solution is to remove the 400AH reference from the web site and thank you very much for the field report. They have NO straps suitable for 400Ah cells and no intention of getting us any. Sorry.....



Of course, their suppliers, whom they refuse to reveal but whom we of course found anyway, want a kind of a hugish 3000 straps minimum to build them. And we need about 70.

I'm so incensed by this cavalier attitude, as well as the truly egregious shipping charges EVworks has started charging, that we're going to look at just buying the 3000 straps, along with 3000 of all the other sizes, the bolts, the Nordlocks, and just going into the battery terminal connection business. That way I'll have them and you can get them without having to go to Australia for them. Ridiculous situation.

But truly, we love these copper braided straps. They are flexible and do NOT put pressure on the terminals when flexing. They work well with the Nordlocks which have become a central element of our terminal connection strategy. We simply do not use the copper bent straps sent by the manufacturers any longer.

For the moment, we've cut the end out of the straps so they are long enough to fit. They don't REALLY fit and we have kind of not quite enough surface area here for 3000 amps of current. But it will let us wire up the pack until we can get proper 67.5 mm straps in from China.

We got some 1/4 x 3/4 aluminum bar and some 1/2 x 3/4 aluminum bar in from McMaster Carr and we are starting our new strategy of clamping tabs together with 1/4 inch 20 thread screws for the A123 cells. There is nothing really innovative here. Numerous people do this more or less this way and describe it online and a number of different viewers have suggested this, albeit in one screw and two screw and plastic screw variants. Hopefully we'll have something to show this week or next. I've ordered 300 of the cells and once they are in, we can show several approaches at once.

Back to my Mentos and Coca Cola....

Jack Rickard

174 comments:

  1. Jack,

    Helwig seems to use tinned copper straps with tinned solid copper ends on them in their brush assemblies. Obviously they make them or have a source.

    Doug

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  2. Jack,

    Congratulations! You have surpassed Rolls-Royce's 71 kWh,1411 pound pack. :-)

    Warren

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  3. Jack,
    EVWorks has gone overboard on their shipping... AU$37.80 to ship a 0.15kg ZEVA+ to the US is obscene.

    If you are serious (it is hard to tell sometimes) about selling the straps, bolts and nord-locks, I am going to be in the market for some in late Jan/early Feb. I'm not looking forward to paying almost a 50% premium over the already high cost of the straps to have them shipped.

    If you aren't interested in selling them, please pass the sourcing information on to one or more of your favorite EV resellers and point the rest of us in that direction.

    ReplyDelete
  4. That doesn't seem to dramatic. The shipping for a ZEVA original fuel gauge was $21.70 US$ a year and a half ago. Now it is more like $37.80. The cost of shipping has been rising, plus they quit shipping standard mail and only use the more expensive TNT.

    This may be in part because of the problems they had getting me a fuel gauge driver via standard mail. Tracking and loss resolution is a PITA when it is handled between 2 different government post offices. They sent me a replacement but I'm not sure if they ever got the insurance recovery from the US Post Office (I know it was a USP loss because I did get an empty destroyed package.)

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  5. Jack,

    Here is what I've got in the works. Not everything is illustrated, but the core concept is present.

    http://instagr.am/p/aZZKK/

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  6. Great post Jack! And you are dressed nicer in the past few weeks on the videos. Is the Ms. involved? Kidding aside I enjoy your website and it was a pleasure meeting you at EVCCON. I cant wait for 2012! I am currently converting a Honda Del Sol I purchased just after the show.

    http://forum.smartcar451.com/forum16/683.html

    All the best,
    Aaron Lephart

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  7. Stan:

    Understand I'm having a REAL problem "recommending" any particular EV parts source these days. Not only was I burned pretty badly by one, but I had pressured Dale Friedhoff to buy $16,000 in batteries from him as well. I'm pleased to report Dale is back on track with his truck conversion. But he's out the $16,000 PLUS a bunch of legal fees he sent to Roy Mann, who has now collapsed and retired from leading that lawsuit group which has failed in all regards.

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  8. Nabil:

    Can't tell a lot by the illustration, but it certainly looks interesting.

    I'm trying to get two holes drilled in an aluminum blank to come out in the same place twice. My machining skills are really not very good. I'm getting Rod Holshouser to take a look at what I'm doing and try to make me a jig of some kind out of steel.

    Jack

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  9. I've thought about using a jig with ball bearings to guide a drill

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  10. The general engineering method to elongate holes in a plate is to drill using an end mill and a steel drill jig. *All must be clamped down*. The mill should be inside the drill guide before you start the machine. When you have elongated one hole, place a peg or the shank of a drill in to help ensure it will not move while doing the other side.

    Looked on the 'net for tinned copper braiding. It's not a bad price if one feels competant enough to punch open the bolt holes then hot clamp/solder the strap ends stiff before cutting - if required at that point.

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  11. Jack,
    Have a look here!

    http://www.alcoltd.com/copper-braid-pages/flexible-braid.htm

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  12. btw kudos for using metric sizes Jack.
    if you feel up to it you can do the same with weights.

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  13. Jack, ev99saturn (the cobra builder on youtube) reports that his A123 cells come in at 19.6Ah at 1C +-0.2Ah
    he's using the CBA battery analyzer.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyKHpvRpGN0

    he uses 2.0V cutoff. not sure what he charges them to though

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  14. Looks like 3.6 volts according to his comments last week.

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  15. yes but I think it matters when you quit giving them 3.6V.

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  16. Being LiFePO4 they should do just fine at 3.6 but a safer range might be 3.5. I use 3.65 with my old Hi-Power and 2.5 at the bottom. Once topped of the cells should still settle to 3.35 volts.

    Pete :)

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  17. I made some of my own straps from some heavy 3/4" wide tinned braid with copper ends made from 5/8" long sections of 1/2" copper water pipe crushed flat to the ends of the braid. The braid can be stretched or compressed a little to get a perfect fit to the copper. Holes were punched with a hand (Whitney) punch and then the braided portion was clamped in a vise, as a heat sink to keep the solder from wicking into the braid, while the copper was soldered to the braid with a propane torch. Worked very well...

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  18. Klaus,

    Do you have photos or video of your straps you made? I may have already seen them but did not keep any links. The CT equipment we have at work uses flat braid in round ended lugs used for cable then crimped. They work great that way and still give excellent flexibility. I am thinking of doing it that way because using 2/0 is just to bulky and little flexibility. I also do not like the solid copper straps either. Those have zero flexibility.

    Pete :)

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  19. Dan:

    Good for old EV99Saturn. I'm ecstatic for him. They don't do that here. Since you don't know what he's testing, and what he's testing for, it's odd you would be enthusiastic over his results.

    Jack

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  20. Peter:

    I'm using 3.65v, 5 amps, and 2.5 volts. There is not enough difference between 2.5volts and 2.0 volts to matter one whit.

    Jack Rickard

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  21. Jack,
    In regards to the El Escalade, have you thought of or considered using aa reverse cycle air conditioning system to maintain cabin comfort and battery thermal efficiency. I'm thinking I could the plumbing and complexity of two cooling systems?
    I've just started pulling apart a local Australian car, a 1985 commodore and converting that to electric, and I am coming across some issues with heating and cooling. Trying to utilize the ac system currently installed and have it as a reverse cycle

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  22. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  23. Jack, some of the discharge graphs I have seen suggest there is significant difference between 2.5 and 2V cutoff. which is why I suggested you publish discharge data so we can try to make sense of the difference between your results and others. you have stated as little as 16.5Ah to your viewers which is not a good impression to leave them with if they consistently do well above 19.

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  24. Stop it Dan. you're making silly demands and throwing a tantrum over the variability of reality. *again*

    Let's keep Jacks blog contributory.

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  25. Andy, actually you're the one making silly demands

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  26. Jack,

    I have a question. After you charge your A123 cells have you noticed that they remain well above 3.4 volts, like in the 3.5 volt or more range? I am thinking that they should still drop into the standard 3.35 to 3.4 volt range after sitting awhile. I know my Hi-Power drops into the upper 3.3 volt range but nothing above 3.4. If they do hang in the upper range after charging do you think it may be because of the nano carbon used? Im also thinking that if someone charges and they remain up in the 3.5 volt static range that they have been over charged.

    Pete :)

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  27. Pete,

    I tried to put it in a Blogger post but I could not get the blog to post publicly. Here is a picture of the 1st one I made with solder wicked from the terminal on the left. I used the vise heatsink for the terminal on the right and the braid is flexible right up to the squashed pipe.

    http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n532/Fourcycle/BraidedStrap.jpg

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  28. (nano carbon used?)

    Meant to say nano phosphate

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  29. Klaus,

    Very nice. A very nice DIY approach to the problem. You can custom fit to your needs and it still looks clean. Not machine made but clean. I like the hands on approach. I like the idea of the vice as a heat sink to not only hold the part but to keep solder from wicking and it looks tinned too. :)

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  30. You know Dan, you are right. THat would NOT be a good impression to leave the viewers with - were it so.

    It rather assumes that I don't know how to do a capacity test on a cell, which is absurd on the face of it. And it rather assumes you DO, which you've never tested one in a row. Now you've found some data on YOUTUBE indicating that someone thinks he has done better, of course with different cells.

    How should I respond? They do what they do. We average 18.58 Ah per cell. There is less than 0.3Ah between 2.50 and 2.00. And I don't really have a need to PROVE it to a doubting Dan by measuring it MORE OFTEN.

    We received a new shipment of 300 A123 cells yesterday. They are marked and purported to be made in USA and with an A2 marking on them. I'll try to test a few today and see if we get anything different.

    Jack Rickard

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  31. Pete:

    When new they are a little sticky, but left overnight, they fall right into the 3.34 or 3.35 range. I intentionally tried to maximize the charge and got a couple to settle to 3.38. But that's as well as I've done.

    If they remain above 3.4 for more than a few hours they are damaged.

    Jack Rickard

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  32. That's what I thought. Look forward to the results of the cells you received.

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  33. Jack, it's not one source. it's several.
    you should care about getting to the bottom of the disparity if nothing else.
    we need to know the parameter tightness on the cell to know if it is any good. and if you made some hasty conclusions in the beginning you should correct those, not let them linger as disinformation forever. vis a vis the 16.5Ah claim.

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  34. (it's not one source. it's several.)

    Post the sources Dan.

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  35. A123's: After the first production roll there are no Mondays, no unskilled operatives. Variable batches because of occasional material supply. All clockwork. Quality up and prices down. w00t!

    Klaus, top marks. I like the idea of braided lead. It has more surface area to wick any lost heat, stackable, doesn't need special crimping tools for each gauge and can be made daisy-chained for parallel cells.

    I've never liked the idea of parallel/series connections with overlapping straps. Here we could solder braiding to a pair of copper washers to make them "T" shaped.

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  36. Jack:
    I had a question regarding charging. You have mentioned that you need to run the DC-DC converter in order to run instrumentation during charging. Do these loads affect the tail end of charging? In other words if you are at the tail end of charging and down to say 9 amps, but the loads are drawing an amp or two, do you risk overcharging? The charger won’t shut off until the current drops to whatever you specified which will occur much later or worst case, if say the headlights were left on, not at all. Now I understand that the batteries are charging at a lower rate for a longer time, but is this an issue, or is the effect so small that it does not matter?
    DGS

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  37. Cell connector straps - according to on line calculators, 75mm length of a conductor with a cross section of 100 sq. mm is a few percent voltage drop on a 3.3 volt cell at 3000 Amps. That is a fairly hefty bit of braid.

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  38. Hey John, if I remember rightly, multiply the voltage drop with the current and you get the heat output. Scary isn't it.

    If JR has ordered 3000, he can double or treble up on them so he can climb back up the road after the soap box derby, tee hee.

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  39. Pete, I asked for data from osnpower and got some different graphs, one was pretty bad with the wrong axis. the other(s) was just googling for images of a123 20ah disharge

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  40. David:

    I admit it appears to be an interesting question. There are too points here. The charging is an imprecise approximation, a procedure that will get you close.

    Second, the instrumentation we were talking about is the Xantrex and it draws at the very most about 60 ma 12v. That would be about 6 ma from the pack or from the charge. So wildly in another and much smaller order of magnitude that it could not be found with VERY good test instruments.

    But the concept you are using is sound. If you did have the headlights on and all 12v loads so that 3 or 4 amps were being drawn from the pack, it would affect the charge slightly - though again not enough to harm anything.

    Jack Rickard

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  41. Dan:

    The only disparity is in your mind. The disparity between my measurements and some you saw on YouTube? If YOU are curious about the disparity, run your own measurements until you are satisfied Dan. You do NOT get to assign me homework little man. If I'm not interested in it, I'm not spending any time with it. And what you've found trolling about the Internet trying to get an argument started SOMEWHERE (anywhere) is NOT of any interest to me personally.

    There are ENDLESS experiments that should and can be run on battery cells and I would urge you to oursue them - with your own time and treasure of course. And I hope we have set an example for you to follow, so that instead of greedily grasping every part of everything you THINK is a fact to your miserable little breast as proprietary DATA, that you share it with the world openly and freely.

    This IS the way you learn that your measurements may not be perfect, and about "disparities". Left in the darkness of your own vault, they tend to persist whether actually factual or not. And so the precious IP is often found later to not be quite so precious.

    Jack RIckard

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  42. Jack, it's not about me bossing you around with some arbitrary command. it is just reason.
    next time just let it discharge to 2V. simple as that.
    since it's the truth you will end up having to deal with it eventually. don't make an enemy of the truth, it's never wise. it hampers your efforts to take over the world.

    and merry christmas, this now pagan dance around a pine tree but was once about the birth of Jesus the Christ. the followers of which love the truth and never deny it. John 14:6

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  43. The truth is in the eyes of the beholder. for humans alone, there are over 7Bn different versions of reality.

    If someone insists these will be perfect little tin soldiers then let them play. With their own little tin soldiers. just don't come crying to anyone they have bought a different coloured set.

    Andrew (m1aws)

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  44. ( There is less than 0.3Ah between 2.50 and 2.00.)

    This indicates it has been discharged to 2 volts. Don't assume it has not been done already. I can confirm that the difference is very small. I am quite sure many others have done so as well. It is well known that once on the steep curve things happen real fast. Little Ah's are transferred in such a short time.

    Why not just ask if someone has done it already rather than assume it has not been done and get all snippy about it? Jack is not the only one testing cells you know.

    The Dance was never about Christ. Man's religion injected it into the practice of the dance in an attempt to make it OK according to the Christians of the Day. Now it is just commercialism. Baaaa Humbug.

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  45. This is mainly another data point for Dan to add to Jacks A123 testing. My cells are from a different source and although IR etc test well on 95% of the cells the capacity is even LOWER. I'm charging to 3.65v with a cut off of 0.5A and discharging to 2v. I have open cell voltages of 2.70-2.75v after the cell recovers. I don't think you could even charge this high or discharge this low in a real car so this is basically best case. I'm averaging 17.8-18Ah after I weed out the low 5% that I don't trust.
    I also paid $22.50CAD per cell including shipping and import costs so it's still a good deal. However it just proves a bit more that you really have no idea what kind of cells you are going to get if you buy these grey market A123 20ah cells. (the seller I bought from is out of cells now).

    Basically I wouldn't get hung up on the capacity of these so much, if you buy them it should be for power and not range! These cells do put out awesome power and as I mentioned above I've had about 5% that I don't feel comfortable putting in my main pack due to slightly higher IR, so these will go into my 12v battery. Just like Jack is doing, I would count on a 6P group to make a 100Ah battery and whatever is extra is a bonus.

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  46. Check out these cells. Found article that says they are made in Jacksonville Florida. Looks easy to assemble as there is a nut on one side and a bolt on the other. Just thread them together. Another DOE loan company...do they sell to the DIY EV builder or only the US military?

    http://www.saftbatteries.com/doc/Documents/defence/Cube769/VL12V_0510.c49bfef4-fb6b-4469-a620-d3ca7f6e6c5c.pdf

    http://www.saftbatteries.com/Produit_Large_VLV_cell_range_301_64/Language/en-US/Default.aspx#DL2

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  47. browsing around, I found the do make an iron phosphate cell as well. Probably not made in the USA, but interesting none the less.

    http://www.saftbatteries.com/doc/Documents/defence/Cube769/VL45EFe.e3741a09-74fd-4df4-8687-12997f445ef5.pdf

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  48. Robin, do you have graphs?
    and what equipment do you use to test them? what discharge rates.
    where did you buy them and when?

    of course capacity is hugely important. we are not only building dragsters. 10% lower range is huge.

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  49. Happy Christmas Jack and all (even Dan)

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  50. palmer, my impression of saft is that they are cluelessly expensive. but I don't have any current prices. you can ask them for pricing.

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  51. Stop making daft demands.

    http://www.atbatt.com/b/saft.asp

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  52. Andy, yes please do.
    those are mostly primary cells. not rechargeable.

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  53. Actually, most are secondary cells and ALL are a stupid price. Got it now?

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  54. Actually you are right. They can't be recharged. It cannot reduce my disinterest any further.

    We need suitability, reliability, price, performance.
    Oddball spec stuff more often than not does not cut it.

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  55. Dan, I don't have any graphs..
    I bought the cells in two batches from China, one this spring and one this summer.
    The first batch of cells was tested with an RC charger/discharger as well as a charger and discharger that I made, they both gave the same results so I quit with the RC piece as it was very slow. I did 0.5C tests initially and tested the same cell at various C rates to find the fastest rate that I could get a fairly accurate number. I discharge at 5C to "empty" the cell, then charge it at 2C while measuring what I put in, then discharge again at 2C to see what I can take back out. This capacity is so close to the 0.5C and 1C numbers that it's just not worth the extra time (I'm doing every cell, for efficient grouping) Even the 5C number is pretty darn close but I would probably burn out my measuring device because it's not rated for 100A continuous.

    Since I know it will be a big deal to you the difference between 0.5C and 2C on a cell without IR problems is around 0.1Ah, but other measuring errors could of course come into play there as well.

    These cells don't do 20Ah period and I don't think it's worth fussing over. Consider them 17.5 or 18Ah cells and be happy when they put out more. If you obsess over every Ah then you should probably go buy CALB cells instead.

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  56. Robin, thanks for the info but every little thing helps win the war.
    we can live with 18Ah but I'd much prefer 19.5

    did you buy from OSN? when I ask where you got them please don't just say china :)

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  57. Dan, it was a trading company that I know of from other dealings with China, they could have come indirectly from OSN or Victpower. It was just another middleman trading the product. He physically didn't have the cells, he basically bought them and sold them to me. I still got them very cheap so I don't know how the whole system works.
    I can only share my experience from the cells I physically have on hand.
    Even at 18ah for the price paid and the performance of these cells they are an amazing deal. I think finding a connection method would be a better thing to concentrate on as the cost of that could make a much more drastic difference in the final total.
    What is your project? How far along are you? and are you ready to buy cells?

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  58. What war? 18Ah is real and 19.5 is just a dream. Can't' get 19.5 if it aint there. Can't get a cup of orange juice from a dry orange now can you. Maybe he did JUST get them from China.

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  59. Robin, maybe the third time is the charm, what is the name of the trading company you bought them from?

    no project

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  60. "it was a trading company that I know of from other dealings with China,"

    What WAR?

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  61. The war to take over the world!

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  62. That's right. I remember Pinky and the Brain :)

    But why is Dan so fraught on getting information he already has. Do we all need to test and test and test again until Dan is happy or should Dan test and test and test until Dan's happy?

    I am quite happy with my confirmation of Jacks work. I am very glad that Jack is doing all this. Less work for me. I trust him. I trust his methods and methodology.

    18Ah is what it is at this time. Maybe Jacks new batch will reveal better results. He will say. Until then there is no need to do anything. I'd much rather wait and do what I am doing. I eagerly await the results of his new batch.

    Pete :)

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  63. You know how it is Pete,
    You really do know, deep inside.

    On a lighter note... If I was the devil, I'd INVENT religion.

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  64. "Dan Frederiksen said...
    palmer, my impression of saft is that they are cluelessly expensive. but I don't have any current prices. you can ask them for pricing."

    I don' t recall Palmer mentioning pricing so there can be but ONE of us just tying to know Dan. And after due ponderance of the issues, am I to gather that it is your considered opinion that PALMER could contact the company directly for pricing information.

    That way Palmer would know. And I guess he's to share with Dan so Dan would know?

    Jack Rickard

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  65. I guess this discussion comes down to Jack's rule of thumb: price/range/performance. Price/performance = small pack of A123s. Price/range = Swallow with an Agni instead of the AC50. Range/performance = Elescalade or e-Cobra.

    Andyj - that's not a lighter note, that's fighting talk and I'd love to debate it - but over a coffee rather than on Jacks blog. In the meantime you might want to check out John B Goodenough's autobiography

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  66. Hi John,
    It is me who is weak and receptive to almost all fluids.

    Just read his bio. Are you hinting his attitude was nothing like Dan's?

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  67. Jack, yes I suggested he could check and share the found information with the class. can you ever forgive me.

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  68. btw will there be a show this week and next or is it cancelled due to christmas? I don't think you talked about that in the last show.

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  69. For the final time Dan it was a trading company in China, one I've built a good relationship with over the past 10 years. They don't sell batteries, but they ARE IN CHINA. I asked for a personal favour since I'm NOT IN CHINA. They found me the cells and I bought them. When you work with them for 10 years you might get a personal favour too.......

    Why do you even care how much they cost or where you can get them or if they come in 10% low if you don't have a project????

    Are you simply in the research stage for a future project?? (please say yes for the sake of all of us that have to wade through your demanding posts week after week for information you should be collecting and analysing yourself)
    Buy your own cells, buy your own tester, spend your own time, make your own graphs....
    I think I've heard Jack say all that before, now I have a small idea of what you mean Jack.

    ReplyDelete
  70. Saft always supplies cells as complete energy storage systems customized as needed to meet customer specifications.

    ReplyDelete
  71. Yes, Robin, there IS a Dan. He's our own special needs child poster boy that we at EVTV adopted Internationally. He's actually 11 years old and suffers from a combination of autism, attention deficit disorder, and optical-rectal pennitus along with allergies to orange juice and daylight.

    He has no projects. Has never done anything with electric cars and indeed received his first RIDE in an electric car months ago. But there are NO online discussions of electric cars anywhere on the Intenret without a lot of advice from Dan in there, along with criticism of everyone who DOES do anything with electric cars. In the poor waifs shut in world, he imagines himself a misunderstood genius, unappreciated by a cold cruel capitalist world bent on the development of filthy euchre to the destruction of the very spirit of the common genius boy/man i.e. himself.

    And so you can see how our heart goes out to him and we have adopted him as the EVTV mascot and poster child.

    That's why he trolls our blog and annoys all ouur viewers.

    It's his job you see. You bring a little joy into his day with each message of abuse you send his way.

    Jack Rickard

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  72. Jack, Brian, and Crew

    Have a Very Merry Christmas

    I know we will all have a Great New Year

    Pete & Kim :)

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  73. Merry xmass evtv.

    And remember, when ranting, there is a little Dan in all of us.

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  74. Merry Christmas all,

    May be blessed with many gifts or much coal which ever is appropriate.

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  75. And a Merry Christmas to you all, no exceptions.

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  76. Robin, I'm changing the world. you might ask yourself why you insist on not helping.

    Jack, Robin might actually be able to find out where the cells come from. you are the one acting like you are 11.

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  77. Dan,

    No Dan, your not changing the world. But you are still insisting that others do your work. You still don't get it.

    Doers are changing the world. Not talkers. Got plenty of talkers. Don't have enough doers.

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  78. Well Dan, as instructed I have gone and done some digging, followed the paperwork trail for my cells and guess where they came from?!?!?!?!?!?! China just like we thought. (well there is a sharpie crossed out "made in Korea" but hey, it was crossed out in sharpie so that's a dead end)

    Merry Christmas to Jack and Brain, along with all of your viewers (even Dan)

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  79. Merry Christmas to all in EV land. The doers, the thinkers and the wannabes like me!

    - Doc

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  80. You can't change without doing. Change requires you actually do something. Then you can talk about what YOU have done to contribute. What have you done?

    ReplyDelete
  81. Yes, Merry Christmas to the viewers too. Just opened my first gift. :)

    Gotta rest. I work in the morning. Doing our Christmas in the evening time.

    9:48 Pacific Standard Time.

    A cool 33 degrees right now. I will wake up to a nice frosty white morning. So we will have a brief White Christmas :)

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  82. Merry xmass evtv.

    And remember, when ranting, there is a little Dan in all of us.Merry xmass evtv.

    And remember, when ranting, there is a little Dan in all of us.

    And God Bless us every one. Merry Christmas to all.

    Jack

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  83. Robin, I meant the name of those you got them from..
    you say you bought them this spring and summer yet only paid 22.5$cad. that's before the price drop we just experienced which if true could mean they are from a more direct source than either OSN or victpower. could you ask your trading company where they got them? could be important.

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  84. Merry Christmas All! I hope everyone finds lots of LiFePO4 under their tree today!

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  85. Wayne here, aka ev99saturn. I see that my cell testing has been discussed on Jack's forum, so I thought I would offer a few comments.

    First, there seems to be a shortage of good test data out there for these pouch cells, along with an abundance of speculation. Jack's testing is great to see and is helpful to everyone that is seriously considering using these cells. Thanks for that Jack.

    The goal of my testing is to see how well the cells live up to spec, and to help calculate potential range and performance for my planned pack. So to start, I want to find the typical max capacity, but, plan to build and use a pack within more reasonable boundaries, the often recommended 80% max DOD.

    I am testing a sample of 10 cells, as best I can with my limited equipment and time. The top charge and low voltage cutoff I am using is 3.60-3.65V and 2.0V. I charge at 3.65/cell and wait for the charge rate to trickle down to under 0.1A. A123 spec sheet shows a max voltage at 3.8, so I do not think I am overcharging at 3.65. The A123 spec also says that the cell can tolerate repeated 100% DOD cycles, so I am trying to test to that level.

    I agree with Jack in that there is about 18.5Ah or so usable in the cell. Beyond that the cell is in steep decline and is about to empty.

    However, my tests show that between 2.5V and 2.0V, using a 1C discharge rate, there is an average of 0.435Ah difference. This data was extracted from 10 charge/discharge cycles on one of the cells.

    Overall, I would suggest that Jack's testing and mine are showing about the same results. I think I'm pushing my cells a bit more at the top and at the bottom, which may explain the difference. Is this due to different test goals? Where Jack is trying to determine a reasonable usable capacity, and where I am trying to push it to the limits? .... just my 2 cents ;-)

    Best wishes to all for the Holidays.

    Wayne

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  86. Wayne, I also expect the cells to test somewhat similar. but even then we need to find out how much they vary from batch to batch.
    hopefully some people will publish graphs as they buy some cells.
    it would also be interesting to see tests of cells from fisker. if there is such a thing as A and B cells and how much they differ.

    ReplyDelete
  87. If you don't have at least one friend that is an idiot.you may just be that friend

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  88. It was obvious Jack meant watt hours, not watts. In fact he mentioned watt hours later in this more upbeat than ever episode. Watching Dan's youtube video with the table top motor revving up made me smile because it reminded me of a B-movie sound effect of a mad scientist's lab. I'm not commenting on your invention, Dan, but the little video I saw is very sketchy in comparison to any episode of EVTV. I emailed Mr. Stemwinder as requested. It seems the info@balqon address is not functioning. I also CC'd winston888. Would it be difficult to insert hyperlinks to the news items in the videos? Why does the Elescalade get an odd number of batteries, and is it unnecessary to pair [and presumably, bottom match] said battery pack? The battery terminal preparation was very informative. I also looked up Nord-Lock and how it works. Very clever. I wonder if their patents have expired or will soon? An insulated battery pack heated with an electric pad seems like it would be more energy efficient and less complicated. Or how about just making the fluid heated pack more efficient by applying aerogel sheets to the outside of the box? http://www.aerogel.com/products/pdf/Spaceloft_DS.pdf Also, I am wondering if you have given much thought to which Tesla Model S configuration you are going to choose, Jack?

    ReplyDelete
  89. Wayne:

    Thanks for checking in. Yes, the disparity would appear to be in young Dan's mind. We were averaging 18.58 Ah per cell. I did NOT take it down to 0.1A at 3.65, more like 1 amp (5 amperes on 6p cells). The 0.4-0.5Ah between 2.5 and 2.0v sounds very much spot on.

    I received a new batch of cells this week and tested some. Unfortunately, Brain left his microphone on in the other room while I was shooting it, and it ruined the audio. But they came in about 19 Ah - the best we've done.

    In operation, I do not believe I would run these cells down to 2.0volts.

    Jack

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  90. Perin:

    I think you'll find our discussion of Balqon in the coming episode of interest. There have been some developments that in some ways are a bit shocking.

    The Elescalade got an odd number of batteries because that is what would fit. Since we are not pairing, there is no advantage to an even number. I can do 19 across the bed, and three rows of those physically for 57 cells.

    I could probably do more underneath and indeed the 11 inch Motors with the new Hellwig Splittop brushes could probably do 220 volts or so. However, the back end of the Elescalade is squatted down pretty impressively with 1700 pounds of batteries and straps and box now.

    We are already using liquid cooling for the environmentals obviously. I do not like the wear and failure modes of resistive electric heating pads very much, although we are using a couple of very small 200watt versions of that very thing for the night heating when charging. It is pretty simple to simply loop our glycol heating system through the battery box. We'll crank that up to 145 or 155F and loop it through our heat exchanger in the cabin. That should drop it a bit to 125F or so and then through the battery box for some further drop before running back to the heater.

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  91. AARRRGGHH!
    Blummin' heck Jack!!!
    I've just spent over an hour writing up all about that company. it's finances, everything. grr! >:-))

    Will send you directly what was about to be sent in case you haven't "Been there".

    It's your blog so I'll be quiet. Will you be turning up when they have to auction?

    ReplyDelete
  92. Send ahead what you have Andyj. The more the merrier.

    Jack

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  93. It's sent to info@evt....
    In my usual disjointed, poorly constructed ocd fashion.

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  94. Hi Jack

    Merry Christmas to all of EVTV

    Just a quick note on the audio, I do not know exactly how you record it, but it might not be that hard to separate Brain's audio from yours, and get a good segment anyway, of cause this depends on a lot of things that I do not know.

    I have used this program: Amadeus Pro from http://www.hairersoft.com/pro.html to manipulate audio on a few video recordings of my own, and that program worked really well for me. So I will recommend it to you.

    Carsten

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  95. Balqon - with their December 19 SEC filing would tend to imply that they are pretty much OUT of business. This is hard to work out as Winston made a $5million investment last December. That he would let that go down the tubes doesn't make much sense to me.

    But they have $200K in cash and not much of a clue.

    They also have two products they've been working on this year that might be of interest. One is a flux vector controller - a 3 phase controller for AC motors. Purportedly they have a BACKLOG of 26 orders for this so I"m not too keen on ordering one. It is unlikely they will ever deliver these unless their financial condition improves dramatically.

    The other is an 8 kw charger. No details on it at all. I'd love to find out more.

    I think this company is down to two or three people and no oxygen.

    As to Winston Chung?????

    Jack RIckard

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  96. Cue evil voice in the subway from Ghostbusters 2:
    "Winston..."

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  97. Merry Christmas all and Happy New Year!

    God Jul och Gott Nytt År!

    ReplyDelete
  98. Balqon need someone highly intelligent. He must have special skills. He must have the drive to take over the World. A special person on a par with Tesla and Einstein. He must be a natural leader of men with great modesty who risks himself like Jesus did.

    Anybody with these qualities. Can anyone help?

    Jeg ønsker deg en riktig God Jul og et Godt nytt år også Mr. Fisher. Takk også for din opplysende bidrag.

    ReplyDelete
  99. maybe Sinopoly was right about Winston when they said he violated contract by continuing to produce thundersky cells.

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  100. I had lunch with a friend, whom I'd not seen in a couple years, who helps American companies do business in China and visa-verse. I brought up the subject of LiFePO4 batteries and though he was obviously quite familiar with them, he refused further comment and quickly changed the subject. Any thoughts of becoming a local supplier of these batteries was quickly dashed. Interesting stuff, for sure!

    ReplyDelete
  101. Andyj:

    Great minds think alike. I was just thinking the same thing. Balqon is in deep trouble, this is a job for someone "special" with "special talents" and certainly differently enabled. Someone with imagination. Someone who is ALWAYS right. Standing for Truth, Justice, and the Denmarkian Way.

    There's only one man for this job.... SUPERDAN.....

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  102. Well, I hope a multi-national hydrocarbons consortium hasn't bought up the LiFePo patents! I look forward to watching the next installment of EVTV.

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  103. we waste so much time trying to paint me as a vicious attacker when all I do is offer pertinent valuable input without malice. but the superdan comment made me chuckle :)

    I was looking at the Swallow's half shafts, I don't know how much more weight will be on it when assembled and a person in it but if the half shafts aren't close to level when done that might be an energy stealer. if so maybe use softer springs to level it?

    good to see the charge stations coming down in price. I expect them to come down somewhat more as they are really just glorified extension cords albeit 30+A rated. it's basically the copper cable that's the most costly item in it.

    regarding the heat detection circuit, I'm wondering if it's too late to shut off charging at that point?
    might be better to have a monitor on a single cell or a couple of cells and watch for excess of 3.9V. maybe a relay that only connects the monitor during charging and momentarily so as to not present a problem in itself.
    maybe a zener and LED through fiber optic cable.
    another option is simply a watchdog on the charge voltage. if cutoff is supposed to happen at 130V the independent watchdog can sound alarm at 135. the watchdog can be powered by the charging power so it's only on when charging.

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  104. Dan, I'm right behind you on thermostatic cut-off's.

    On another note about cell suppliers. I've been looking at these EnerDel cells, namely the "T-HE". We see them for sale on Alibaba; minimum order in 10 off's, price between $38~$38.1. (Same $/AH as CALB's). My point being after reading financial reports and investment brochures I know they are made for $22.50 apiece.

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  105. Hi guys another year is almost gone and we who have been working have achieved so much and the rest so little.
    So as the New Year comes what hopes and desires will you bring into life?
    It begins with a dream and is backed up with action and bought into existence by shear guts, sweat of the brow and work of the hand.
    What stays in the mind amounts to nothing.
    Thanks Jack and Brain for EVTV and wishing everyone and all a Happy New Year.

    ReplyDelete
  106. Another great year of EVTV.

    Thanks Jack and Brian.

    I have been looking at the Misubishi I MIEV, The local dealer in Columbia MO says they will have 3 of these in the spring of 2012. One of the cars is spoken for. I have not heard much from you about these I know they are not a luxury vehicle.

    http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/special/ev/

    seems affordable (particularly when factoring in the $4,000 a year cost of gasoline) at less than $30,000 before rebates. Also the batteries used are Toshiba SCIB (lithium-titanate). LiFePo4 With added Titanate. Is this the Titanate you have refered to in previous videos?

    http://www.toshiba.com/ind/product_display.jsp?id1=821

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  107. John Hardy,

    Brilliant, just brilliant.
    Thanks a whole bunch for that bit on the show.

    Pete :)

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  108. Thanks Jack for putting it on the show.

    Pete :)

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  109. btw, a little sassy to say your wife uses a broom for transport, Jack : )

    ReplyDelete
  110. Unlike you Dan, Jack is not above holding a broom.

    ReplyDelete
  111. Jack Rickard said...

    Yes, Robin, there IS a Dan. He's our own special needs child poster boy that we at EVTV adopted Internationally. He's actually 11 years old and suffers from a combination of autism, attention deficit disorder, and optical-rectal pennitus along with allergies to orange juice and daylight.

    Strange,whilst I can remember reading on Plasmaboyracing.com under the 'events' section that at 2009 the Wayland InvitationalIV event was advertised as being 'Autism Awareness Week' and they were asking donations for a guide dog for a young man with Autism,I find that on this website Mr Rickard using Autistic and Attention Deficit Disorder in a derogatory context.Words mean something Mr.Rickard,and the context and manner in which words are used qualify that meaning.Words like stupid and retarded are derogatory as well but are non specific to any one group of people.Is not this blog open to public viewing by anyone anywhere at anytime?Including maybe my Autistic/ADHD 8 year old son.He's very bright.Multiplies exponents in his head.And has a great EVTV inspired idea for an alternating current battery.Thanks Mr.Rickard;you're an inspiration to us all.

    ReplyDelete
  112. Interesting comment there Mr. Unknown.
    Why DID you use "stupid" and "retarded" with autism?

    I have a form of aspergers. The g/f and Dan will swear blind I have ocd too. How come I do not see anything offensive when no harm is meant?

    I'm personally sure Jack associating autism with Dan is not meant in any way to give autism a bad name! However I do love daylight, probably because I'm not an acting Christian.

    ReplyDelete
  113. to andyj. and all
    I accept you reassurance that Mr.Rickard meant no offense. Be assured neither did I.My apology for my trollsome intransigence.A knee jerk reaction I suppose.I'll fall off my high horse now and break my "Stupid"neck. And I'll not comment here again,I've nothing in the way of EV knowledge to contribute

    ReplyDelete
  114. unknown, you can learn and ask questions here.

    Andy, I think most christians like daylight :)

    let's try to get back to how EVs can change the world for the better.

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  115. Titanate. Yes, I've mentioned it. But despite my fascination with Titanium dioxide, I'm really not that certain of all the implications.

    Altair Nano makes batteries with a focus on the ANODE side and specifically make a nano particle titanate for Lithium anodes. Anyone can buy this material and in fa ct, they are really a materials company more than a battery company.

    With carbon anodes, as part of the forming charge sequence, a kind of rubbery layer of residuals from the electrolyte is deposited on the surface of the carbon. This kind of limits current, but it also cements the wall of carbon sheets which limits the damage from the expansion and contraction of the intercalation cycle. So it is somewhat beneficial. It is termed the Solid Electrolyte Interphase layer (SEI) I believe.

    Titanate anodes do not have carbon, or SEI layers. As a result, you can charge them in 5 minutes and the current limitations are much more liberal. It's not REALLY as stable as carbon and I think there are some life cycle issues - they may have GREATER cycle life but more likely less.

    Anyone know anything else about stupid autistic troll some titanate anodes?:

    Jack

    Jack

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  116. I don't know much about the chemistry, I just observe the poor energy density (like toshiba scib). extreme cycle life is great but not with a factor 2 weight penalty. really don't want a 200kg pack weighing 400kg. it's not just the 200kg extra, it's a lot more in structural penalty as well. if that's just numbers, think of it in terms of carrying 2 pianos around. that can't be good.

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  117. Dan lives across the water from Scandinavia. They say the trolls over there can smell the blood of Christians. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troll_Hunter

    Don't knock yourself Mr. Unknown. You have a name.
    Me & Dan regularly contribute nothing with words.

    Quote from a technomage:
    "The true secrets, the important things. 14 words to make someone fall in love with you forever. 7 words to make them go without pain, or say good-bye to a friend who is dying. How to be poor. How to be rich. How to rediscover dreams when the world has stolen them."

    Titanate PAH!
    Enerdel use solid graphite. It does not break up with regular heavy use. ;)

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  118. So just what is the energy density of a two liter bottle of diet Coke? And just how much does Mentos improve the power density over say a bottle dropped onthe driveway? Is there A J1772 standard for soda fountains used for recharging? What about CO2 emissions? These are the real questions.

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  119. Google: "coca cola donate co2"
    Over 4.5 litres of CO2 in every 2 litre pop bottle. You CAN get a quart into a pint pot.

    Hopefully enough CO2 to give Mr. Gore and all his psychotic buddies a heart attack. >:-))

    Did you know sea water holds 18x more CO2 per volume than air at sea level? This explains the yearly fluctuation of CO2 as the seas warm up and cool down, releasing and absorbing. The sea is also by far the Earth's #1 emitter of methane too.

    We are the carbon cycle. I'm addicted to it. Need a fix three times a day at mealtimes.

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  120. Andy, man made global warming has been accepted as trivially true for over 30 years in science. more tha 50 years among the more informed. my youtube account has video from back then.
    we burn half a cubic kilometer of fossil oil every year plus coal. of course it's real. try to be less joyously ignorant. Al Gore didn't make it up, he just brought it to the ignorant masses who then had an allergic reaction to reason, helped along with a little disinformation from big oil.

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  121. Green EV - many thanks for the encouragement

    Andy - I never answered your question about John B Goodenough. I was referring to his book "Witness to Grace". An eclectic mix of solid state physics,Biblical verses and conferences with Eastern block scientists in the days of the cold war when scientists shared their knowledge rather than patenting it and selling the rights to the highest bidder. He doesn't mention trouble with trolls or daylight.

    I guess you are aware that this is the Goodenough who invented the Li - metal oxide cell, whose team had invented the LiFePO4 cell and who had a hand in inventing solid-state memory.

    Dan re anthropogenic global warming - I personally think it is tosh and further that a claim to consensus is the last refuge of a scoundrel; but again maybe Jack's blog isn't the best place to debate it as we are all here for the EVs with a variety of philosophies and motivations.

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  122. John, what do you base that very unimpressive position on?

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  123. Dan:

    The same thing I do. That your claim of accepted science and consensus is just that - a claim. There is no consensus and very little science.

    I do not actually know whether anthropological climate change is an issue or not. Of course you DO. See the previous discussion on the paper by Dunning and Kruber.

    I DO know enough of the purported science behind it to know that in any conversation I am having with someone who KNOWS for certain, I'm having a useless discussion with a moron for purely entertainment purposes, and it is a peculiarly unkind act for me to continue it.

    IF you want to believe in it and that's what stokes your EV fires, you go girlfriend. But proselytizing it here is really pretty much out of bounds.

    Jack Rickard

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  124. we take a lot of carbon that was stored in the ground and we burn it. CO2 concentration in the atmosphere has risen hand in hand with human industrialization and is now at concentration levels way above what even ice age cycles couldn't reach at the peaks.
    http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/science/images/co2_concentrations-lg.gif
    an explosive rise in CO2 in 100 years way above anything in the last 600.000 years and you think that's just a coincidence that we are burning enormous amounts of fossil carbon..

    and since we indulge the loud ignorance we are far from done rising. oil and coal consumption is the highest it has ever been. we are headed for 600ppm and have long since passed CO2 concentrations of times in earth history when oceans were 150 meter higher than now.

    those who gave you the impression that there was doubt lied to you. I know you don't want to hear it but that reluctance to hear it is why you think there is still doubt. there is no safety in numbers, the truth is merciless. desertification is already taking place. big parts of USA starting from south west will become desert because of our thoughtless activity.
    you can kick and you can scream, even ban me but it's still happening. the reason you are not more confronted with it is that the people who know are tired of trying to defeat ignorance. they just lower their eyes in dismay and give up.
    the people who tell you there is doubt are the same people who sent you to war based on obvious lies. the same people with backgrounds in big oil. scientists have been beating at the door of politicians for 30 years trying to get them to act but it was 'inconvenient' to deal with something they could ignore for a few decades longer. it never started with Al Gore. that's just the focus of the ignorant and violently obtuse right because they only became aware of it recently. so they try to smear Al Gore and many are fooled into thinking it hinges on Al Gore. it never did.

    of course it's real. the only question is will it be disastrous and how disastrous. will it just be an average temperature rise that will make hotter regions unliveable so millions have to move or could there be non linear trigger effects that could be really bad like the rise in CO2 souring the oceans and collapsing ecosystems. and of course the oceans are slowly rising and if left unchecked they will eventually claim all coastal cities of the world. the ocean has been 150 meter higher in the past. it is what we have set in motion.

    truth is not a democracy. republicans don't get a vote.

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  125. Dan, any progress with flying saucers? At least they have an electrical function.

    Jack,
    Great minds eh?
    Many kid scientists I have left deprogrammed over this matter. Sorry for bringing it up though.

    No AGW for 11 years. The Sun has been overactive for nearly two lifetimes. It is about to end.
    I'll email with proofs Dan.

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  126. Andy, just because it has been somewhat constant the last 11 years doesn't mean it went away, it's just been steady at the highest it has ever been..
    and it hasn't actually been static for 11 years. 2007 was an all time record low ice amount on the north pole. 2011 came very close to eclipsing it. it's only a matter of time before a new record is set and only a few years from now the northpole will probably melt entirely in the summer for the first time in many thousands of years leaving a deep black ocean to take in even more sunlight instead of a snow white cap to deflect it.
    it's actual science. you can see the scientific data here http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/

    there is no abnormal solar activity to explain it as you can see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Solar-cycle-data.png
    if anything there is a drop in solar radiation in the last 10 year cycle.

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  127. Dan:

    Your adolescent preoccupation with the truth is misplaced here and I want it ended NOW.

    The U.S. southwest WAS a desert and indeed all the plains states were dessert not 200 years ago. Climate changes. CO2 changes. The evidence for anthropological change is a little dubious frankly. But we are not separate from the earth, we are part of it.

    Pointing to such changes and then making the leap to human activity being the CAUSE of it is where your totally data deficient thought experiment loses us. You are quite correct, everyone is NOT entitled to their own opinion - the physics and the facts are opinion agnostic.

    That said, your interpretation, actually simply repeated internet prattle, will do no good hear and probably never will do much with our viewership or those who follow this blog.

    For myself, I have looked at it a bit, and find the assurances that it is VERY real and the sources of those assurances VERY peculiar. I really can't make out what is what in such a complex system as our weather and climate. But I can make out what is what sociologically and the group you have allied yourself with has an intellectual track record in the negative numbers. Whatever the truth is, it has a zero chance of being THAT.

    That said, nothing coming out of the tailpipe of an oldsmobile can be good for you. We've rather let our preoccupation with CO2 overrun the nitrous oxides, carbon monoxide, and other pollutants that we KNOW comprise a fairly effective suicide recipe in a closed garage. Having a quarter million of them furiously driving down the road in the open air is not going to be good for our health and the open air is not going to disperse it all sufficiently to avoid harm.

    If you don't agree with THAT, go try suck starting an Oldsmobile through the tailpipe and get back to me....

    Jack Rickard

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  128. Nasa, EPA, UN.
    http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/

    there is nothing dubious about it Jack. consider the source of those who say it is dubious.

    and even though they are happy to leave me fighting for the truth alone, I imagine that most of your viewers know that the manmade greenhouse effect is real.

    what reputable organization can you quote against manmade global warming? there really is and has always been wide consensus in the scientific community. not that that proves it is true but that means you can't claim they are dubious sources unless you know something very significant.
    you might also wonder why this topic upsets you so much. if perhaps there is an emotional aversion to the truth in this matter.

    evil men convinced you that Al Gore was the conspirator. you believed the oil companies and the coal companies. think about who has a vested interest in lying about it..
    representatives of 200 countries gathered in copenhagen for the COP15 climate change conference. the outcome was typically politically pathetic but do you really think they would gather around something Al Gore made up..
    and why would Al Gore make it up..
    and why would oil and coal interests lie about it..
    follow the money Jack.
    poor researchers have been trying to get politicians to act for over 30 years. what chance do you think they have against oil and coal lobbies..

    they lied to you Jack

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  129. unknown,

    What little we really know:

    All here are not only blind, we are deaf and dumb and our fingers are very numb! Blind alleys and confusion. Please don't say you will never comment again, that only leaves the psychopaths and sociopaths!

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  130. Yes Dan,

    follow the money that is not a blind alley

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  131. Jeez! All that over a diet Coke.

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  132. Feel deep shame DGS for you have unleashed the monster.

    Fancy that, a Christian troll.

    The worlds largest Mafia pays with our money what it wants. Game over.

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  133. this makes me wonder, what percentage of EVTV viewers are left wing and what percentage are right wing?
    I would think most of the viewers are lefties and that Jack is unusual in the EV world in that he's coming from a right wing background. but maybe it's not as clear cut as that. a poll on the website might be interesting.
    I'm certainly extreme left (so was Einstein) and I'm christian too, so you could say christian left.
    maybe the poll could have two questions, left/right and manmade GW denier/believer.

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  134. Dan,
    You would probably be surprised by the results of such a poll.

    Most of us that are in the process of actually building an EV have worked for a living all our lives and want the government out of our pockets... by default that makes many of us right wing fiscally.

    Many of us that you see as "AGW deniers" simply see that an awful lot of the politics behind the AGW movement is just another money grab by the left. Take a close look at the Carbon Credits mess, look at who is invested in it and who profits off of it... you will find Al Gore and many other of the AGW politicos.

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  135. Jack,
    Have you found any data on the Enerdel cells? Namely the T-HE variant. (For ev use).

    They strongly fit my needs but comparative and safety limit data would go a long way to make a fair assessment.

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  136. Aren't Enerdel toast (delisted by NASDAQ, gone, finished, kaput?). Or did I miss something?

    John

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  137. Well said Stan. And some of us are just sick of sending billions of dollars a day to countries that don't like the U.S. for petroleum. Environmental concerns are secondary the simple economic fact that the more money we send out, the less we have here. It makes no sense when we can supply most of not all of our own daily energy needs from local sources (lftr).

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  138. Hi,

    Here's a story about city to city travel and DC fast charging with some successes and failure.

    http://www.tennessean.com/article/20111227/NEWS11/312270031/Nissan-Leaf-takes-long-journey-Tennessee?odyssey=tab%7Ctopnews%7Ctext%7CNews

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  139. I agree with Dr R and Jack. For me the motivation for EVs is using less oil (Dr R) and not shrivelling the brains of children by forcing them to breathe in dilute vehicle exhaust (Jack).

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  140. I've heard oil prices took a big surge because of the US spear shaking at Iran. The Iranians promised they will shut the Strait of Hormuz if anyone does anything silly.

    Vote Ron Paul and drive electric.

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  141. Most of you clearly don't know "jack" about AWG. As a (former) climate scientist, I have to say Dan is right. Most of us are just tired of "debating" the facts with people who are too ill informed to have a real discussion with. The world is warming. There is ample evidence. It is probably (but not conclusively) NOT too late to do anything about it. It is 99.9999% certain to be wholly human caused, with some minor environmental (non-human) contributions. It will be bad for our grand children, much much worse for our great grand children and much much worse for their grand children.

    The crazy thing that really makes no sense to those of us actually in the industry are the accusations of a "money grab" or some deep seated corruption. I mean, do you know how much money a climate scientist makes? Most Ph.D.'s in physics can make a shit ton on wall street, but instead there is a group that chooses to make 1/1000th seeking the "Truth" (yes with a capital T, because Truth does exist). Sadly, I had to quit the profession to make some real money (and it worked!), but sometimes I feel I gave up a part of my soul.

    Say a climate scientist gets a five million dollar grant to study something. Very little (and usually none) of that is salary for the scientist. Instead it is spent on facilities and salaries for graduate students and post docs who often make salaries that qualify below the poverty level. Arrayed against these individuals is a vast array of energy industry (coal and oil) funded think-tanks, lobbyists, astroturf orgs, politicians, and business people who make huge amounts of money supporting our status quo carbon intensive lifestyle.

    You really think climate scientists are all in some vast conspiracy to . . . . what exactly? There is no money for them. There is no fame. Indeed, there is no career reason to agree with other scientists. The only way to succeed in any science I am familiar with is to show the field how they are wrong, and how their work can be improved/fixed. There is no benefit to simply agreeing with everyone else; in fact, it will get you fired or denied tenure for lacking creativity and failing to contribute. There is only truth (or lies if you believe the deniers I guess). On the other side, there are vast amounts of money utilized to confuse the masses. And yet you choose to believe that the scientists are all lying to you.

    And to be clear, there is NO WAY to deny AWG without assuming that virtually every climate scientist is a liar and involved in some vast conspiracy. The only climate scientists on the denial side don't even really deny AWG, they just properly point out that we are only 99.9999% sure about it, and only 99% sure about that confidence interval.

    This is almost (but not quite) tobacco all over again. You have a small number of scientists lobbyists and politicians corrupted by an industry successfully muddying the waters. The link between smoking and lung cancer was known to science for over thirty years. Big Tobacco managed to confuse the issue for decades to avoid regulation. The public largely bought it, and lambasted people for daring to suggest that smoking ought to be regulated.

    I weep.

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  142. DG,
    I said nothing about the science of AGW. My disagreement with the AGW movement is entirely related to the political BS associated with it. The POLITICIANS, not the scientists are the ones getting rich on the AGW tax schemes. The world wide schemes are even worse... penalizing countries that have already started cleaning up, and rewarding countries that are getting worse. Even Canada had figured out that Kyoto was a bad deal.

    I agree that the earth is likely warming, and that may be caused by man, and likely it is too late to change anything... but I'm not nearly as pessimistic about it as you are.

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  143. ANyone CLAIMING to be a climate scientist at this point is ADMITTING they whore for grant money. You get it if you support the cause, and you don't if you don't. It's a religion, NOT a science. Period. That's the TRUTH Mr. Anonymous DG....

    You and Dan are invited to Party oOn Down the road at some simple minded blog where they will all eat your ice cream as served.

    I laugh.

    The climate will certainly change. There is little to do about it. You hardly caused it. You've just drunk the Gaia koolaid of the Militant Sect of the environmental "religious left".

    Sold your soul for cash? Now there's a triumphant admission of virtue....

    Jack

    Jack

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  144. Dan I tried.

    You've hijacked a perfectly informative blog with nothing but nonsense and religious dogma. Your portrayal of "left" and "right" is typically pathetic and simply not appropriate here. At some level you are left with issues and your simple minded slots for people start to break down.

    You are no longer welcome at EVTV Dan. Stop watching. Stop writing. Just go away.

    Jack

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  145. It would appear that DG is actually DF in his next version, created in December 2011 on blogger and anonymous of course.

    You just can't have a nice little swimming pool without one of the kids launching a floater now can you....

    Jack Rickard

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  146. We're going to have to go to a "moderated" format to remove Danny - our special needs child from the blog.

    Jack Rickard

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  147. Cool, I kinda thought that DG might be Dan. Used similar wording. No problem here with you going moderated. I am actually thinking that unknown might be Dan too.

    Anyway. Kudos to your program and knowledge you share so freely.

    Pete :)

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  148. He'll likely be back, just under another pseudonym but should be easy to spot with his writing style and rantings. Hopefully he will find a blog better suited to his line

    I enjoyed the two segments at the end of the 23 Dec video.

    Charlie B.

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  149. Jack,

    Someone had to be made an example. Good choice. I'm sure you weighed the impact of "moderation" before making this decision. I'm a little sad, though. It's feels like having to take off your shoes for airport security. Damn blog hijackers...

    Can we all agree that everyone's entitled to their own devices for determining "truth", those devices will be kept private, facts, assessments, and genuine questions are allowed, and all the other debateable politics and religion is checked at the door?

    BTW, sign me up for "righty denier" ;)

    Mike Kaindl

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  150. I am very environmentally aware/"green", but I think it laughable to contend the science is settled...even if there is a consensus today, this does not mean tomorrow will not bring a contrary realization. Just look at the example of the establishment "wisdom" regarding the possibility a bacterium could cause peptic ulcers, that antibiotics could cure them [ http://cogsci.uwaterloo.ca/Articles/Pages/Ulcers.one.html#anchor07 ]. "THERE IS NO OX SO DUMB AS THE ORTHODOX." It would be very interesting to learn the Myers-Briggs personality classification on EVTVers [ http://similarminds.com/jung.html ]. I suspect this is as politically diverse a group as setamericafree.org described by R. James Woolsey, former director of the CIA: "A coalition of tree huggers, do-gooders, sodbusters, cheap hawks, and evangelicals." Back to electric vehicles. Did anyone catch this release:

    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2011/12/apl-20111221.html

    APL sensor gives advance warning of catastrophic failure in Li-ion batteries

    "...We demonstrate, in three different rechargeable lithium-ion cells, the existence of an intrinsic relationship between a cell’s internal temperature and a readily measurable electrical parameter, namely the phase shift between an applied sinusoidal current and the resulting voltage. The temperature range examined spanned from −20 to 66 °C. The optimum single frequency for the phase measurement is in the 40–100 Hz range, allowing for a measurement time of much less than a second; the phase shift in this range depends predominantly on temperature, and is almost completely independent of the state-of-charge. Literature reports suggest that the observed dependence of the phase shift on temperature arises from the ionic conduction of the so-called solid-electrolyte-interphase layer between the graphite anode and the electrolyte."

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  151. Thank you for adding the EVTV correspondents clips. The last one seems like a very easy thing to implement without too much fuss and if done properly should not be an issue for shorts caused by the LHDC wire due to chaffing. Is there any data on what temperature the LiFePO4 cells can be taken to without them igniting and if the temperature on or beside the pressure relief cap reaches the reaction temp of LHDC wire before that critical temp?

    The other thing I would like to test some time is to take a set of at least 3 identical cells in series and charge two to 100%SOC and put one in the middle but only charged to something like 50%SOC or less and then do a 2C discharge to see what happens to the cell in the center. Assuming the cell survives without burning up do a standard charge of the series set to see how the middle one behaves. With only 3 cells I would only charge until the two "good" cells were at a proper voltage but in a large pack, like in my 20 cell pack were I only charge to 3.465vpc if the one cell stayed at 0V the average would only be about 3.65vpc so not likely to damage the good cells.

    Since the only real safety issue would be a fire maybe having the main contactor also hooked up through the LHDC wire would be a safety mechanism in case a single cell goes over temp.

    Thoughts?

    David D. Nelson

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  152. Actually---"Amen" doesn't really cover it. "Dan" has been such a profound detriment to the normal workings of this blog, that I wish there was a way to require him to compensate the participants for the undue duress that was caused by his ridiculous posts.(not to mention the responses to them).
    I have been following the entire evtv.me progression from the start, and I can say that I never had a problem until "poster child" showed up.

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  153. Jack - it is a great pity and a ton of work for you but I agree that it's probably the only way we are going to get back to discussing EVs.

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  154. John,
    EnerDel as a US company that makes full packs has been de-listed from the stock market but the company that makes the cells is in China. They won't be packing up if the cells are selling.

    If you search the page (Ctrl-F) for "December 27, 2011 9:27 AM", you will see they are still offered for sale, I presume.

    These are not LiFePo4's. Jack doesn't seem very keen on them but they offer a weight/energy density ratio second only to Kokams due to a graphite anode(?) but I'm not so sure if kokam are trading under that name anymore.

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  155. I've requested info on the Enerdel cells but strangely do NOT get a reply.

    The problem with the EnerDel cells is:

    1. They are not LiFePo4. I really like LiFePo4.
    2. Needs a module design, just like A123.
    3. This company is SO shaky, I don't really have a feel if these will be available for long. Don't want to spend a LOT of effort working out a scheme if I can't get the cells anyway.

    Jack Rickard

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  156. Gizmo,

    I think that is what we term as an imbalanced pack and the middle cell will die if you take the other two to full discharge. It is what happened to two of my cells in my imbalanced pack when I first put them in my MG. One cell was completely killed the other still holds a charge.

    Pete :)

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  157. Jack,
    Have you done any cold temp testing of the LiFePO4 prismatics?

    A guy over on DIYElectricCar is in the process of freezing one in a block of ice to test charging/discharging at sub freezing temps... but he doesn't appear to have the right equipment to get good data from the test.

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  158. That be me Stan! I do have some consistent results so when we run the test with the cell into the solid block of ice we should see something or not. I have a good routine with what I do have. It has provided enough consistency that if there is any major issues it will show up. Granted I don't have the equipment that really should be used but I am trying to get some results anyway. I don't think at this point that it will show much. I think the plastic case is pretty insulating and if the cells are in a reasonable box you should see no real issues. We shall see.

    Pete :)

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  159. I would really enjoy the conversation returning to the subject of EV cars and not political opinions. I think by moving the knowledge of EVs forward, we are assuring our future... ._ ._.

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  160. Stan,
    Data is out there. I wonder why he is bothering?
    eg:
    http://sinopoly.todayir.com/attachment/201110101253303_en.pdf

    Thanks for that Jack.
    The actual Chinese brand name of the cell is "Turbojet", apparently. They are selling in the Alibaba cloud of equipment. The actual cell man'frs *might* do ok!

    My draw to these EnerDels is the 30AH/lb and the extra 50% charge per volume against the standard cells. Coupled with the Emrax motors 20lb weight and 30KW continuous. Then the g/f asks where's her seat.. grrr!

    I have to add, disregarding what I will lose with standard cells, chassis construction would be far simpler and straightforward mounting them with lipped square section steel frame and Hexel sheet for the floor. Time to look back. Simplify, makes it more practical.

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  161. Gizmo - spec. of the digital LHDC I was using is here: http://www.patol.co.uk/lhdc-digital/index.htm. I was using the red/white (90 Centigrade alarm temp).

    I agree that extending the idea to monitoring temperature on the move would be a good idea, although not in my view as high a priority provided you can avoid loose terminals.

    Jack: I'd be very interested in what you would consider the ideal trigger temperature.

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  162. Jack - have you got the red HP Headways yet?

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  163. Pete, I know that the cell will probably be killed off but what I was wondering about is what happens in the case where there is prolonged reversal and subsequent recharging as would be in the case of a pack where a cell went bad in the middle of the pack and it wasn't dealt with. Will it burn on during discharge or charging or will it just be a "damper" on performance? What happens when you try to charge the damaged cell by putting its full capacity through it? What would happen if you reinstalled it in your MG and then cycled it several times. In other words, would it be safe to do?

    David D. Nelson

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  164. Gizmo,

    What happened to my two cells was that they got so hot I could not touch them when I realized I had taken a couple cells to far during the drive. I had all the cells strapped tight and the only thing that hinted to the problem was serious sluggish performance and reduced distance before things got sluggish. My voltage said I had more to go. I should have gotten about 10 miles more under normal conditions. When I got out and checked my pack there was no smoke but there was a load of heat radiating but I did not know which batteries were in question yet. They heated a few cells real hot around the toast cells too. So I unstrapped the pack and two cells instantly puffed out like little pigs. It was instant. I pulled them by putting in cool bolts so I could lift them out. They were scorching hot. One cell never recovered and will not take a charge. The other remained fat but is usable but was never put back into circulation. Later I may do a capacity check. I do not expect to get much. I would not put it back in the pack. If the cell were still good and not totally dead and an still held the proper AH then I'd balance it to the other cell and put it back in. But if I lost capacity I would never put it back in.

    Pete :)

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  165. Pete, I'm grateful for your willingness to invest the time & to take one for the team. Just a thought on your discharge setup - I know you have done controllers to beat up. What about putting a current limit on that is within the capacity of a large resistive load? String out a long steel cable. The cold winter should arrest thermal runaway. Then you just need to keep an eye on it all and count time. Just a thought.

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  166. Nabil,
    A cell that has completely run down is a cell that is a resistive load! That is why they became hot.

    When they have a strong reverse charge pushed into them the plates inside become plated with pure Lithium metal from the electrolyte. It is irreversible.

    Wire has a negative coefficient of resistance. You heat it up, the resistance drops. Not good.

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  167. Andyj,

    Steel and all other metals actually have positive temperature coefficients of resistance. As their temperature increases so does their resistance. (http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_12/6.html)

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  168. Sorry Klaus. My bad, you are correct. I'm getting old and confused about "positive temperature coefficient".

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