tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6676835811534572362.post7530259897893987554..comments2024-02-06T10:02:20.731-06:00Comments on EVTV.ME: Shorter and LIghter - Should Jenny Craig be Part of EVTV?Jack Rickardhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15936311474215791697noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6676835811534572362.post-41845280816368411702011-08-19T18:41:54.699-05:002011-08-19T18:41:54.699-05:00Apologies for a bit of hi-jacking here.
Too hot i...Apologies for a bit of hi-jacking here.<br /><br />Too hot in the workshop. Considered whitewashing the black roof and going on an early morning shift just for the comfort factor in summer?<br />===============================<br />If I was Jack or Brian I would consider mixing it with Craig Vetter who had another ride-out competition based on fuel cost per mile. A 104 mile run on real roads in Lexington Ohio this time.<br /><br />http://www.craigvetter.com/pages/2011-%20Fuel%20Economy%20Contests/2011-Mid-Ohio-results.html<br /><br />Here for the first time sports cars took part. Redux or many of the X-prize cars could be game for this and ought to win!Andyjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11910687437796998340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6676835811534572362.post-24717751459952998032011-08-18T12:38:10.219-05:002011-08-18T12:38:10.219-05:00Re Quimera - 3xUQM motors. They are clearly aiming...Re Quimera - 3xUQM motors. They are clearly aiming for something cheap and docile thenJohn Hardyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08956389394911516375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6676835811534572362.post-43568674329535993112011-08-17T13:37:50.758-05:002011-08-17T13:37:50.758-05:00Interesting - www.quimera-project.com/Html/Quimera...Interesting - www.quimera-project.com/Html/Quimera-Electric-GT.htmlPadraichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01291206974255668481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6676835811534572362.post-39579644330360374882011-08-16T14:45:27.610-05:002011-08-16T14:45:27.610-05:00Jack - Mini efficiency is interesting. Here is a m...Jack - Mini efficiency is interesting. Here is a muddy graph which suggests that the efficiency of the MES DEA 200-250 falls off a cliff below about 2800 r.p.m. If this remains true across a range of voltages it suggests that you are right.<br /><br />http://www.metricmind.com/images/mes_200-250_efficiency.jpgJohn Hardyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08956389394911516375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6676835811534572362.post-54188630423964536492011-08-16T10:48:37.012-05:002011-08-16T10:48:37.012-05:00Padraic, or anyone else wanting to discuss the web...Padraic, or anyone else wanting to discuss the website, my e-mail is:<br /><br />core2kx@gmail.comChristopher Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16715221604947738184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6676835811534572362.post-30367748122942502362011-08-16T09:14:49.657-05:002011-08-16T09:14:49.657-05:00Chris,
I don't see your Email address, but I ...Chris,<br /><br />I don't see your Email address, but I sent an invitation to you on Link-in.<br /><br />PadraicPadraichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01291206974255668481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6676835811534572362.post-19957346831624205592011-08-16T05:08:00.420-05:002011-08-16T05:08:00.420-05:00Padraic,
Shoot me an e-mail via the webmaster lin...Padraic,<br /><br />Shoot me an e-mail via the webmaster link on the index site and we can talk at length about the database. I don't want to hijack this Blog topic.<br /><br /><br />-ChrisChristopher Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16715221604947738184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6676835811534572362.post-69786845276910145932011-08-16T04:03:18.676-05:002011-08-16T04:03:18.676-05:00Chirstopher
A parts database would be fantastic. ...Chirstopher<br /><br />A parts database would be fantastic. What are your ideas on the layout?<br /><br />Jack<br /><br />Did you ever update the owner's manual for the Speedster part duh? And did you ever do another owner's manual for any of the other cars? I thought the one I read was very well written, and educational.<br /><br />PadraicPadraichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01291206974255668481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6676835811534572362.post-58988973078075729602011-08-16T01:59:06.605-05:002011-08-16T01:59:06.605-05:00@ Dr. Righteous:
Scanning through the videos IS a...@ Dr. Righteous:<br /><br />Scanning through the videos IS a pain. That is why, building on Eric Kriss's work, I created the Index Site. There is a Beta Search Tool that I put into the site that works decently.<br /><br />http://www.projectooc.com/evtv<br /><br />There are plans to improve the tool extensively after I have the time. I am also going to build a database of all of the parts used in the show. It is quite extensive and informative. It all takes time.<br /><br />I am a little short on time due to a transitional period with moving. The time I do have to spare is used managing the existing Index, the Contest, and the EVCCON signups etc. But I WILL get to it.<br /><br />For EV cars, as with any car, weight reduction is not the silver bullet. It is the combination of things that is the ticket. <br /><br />Rolling Resistance + Weight Reduction + Aerodynamics = Total performance<br /><br />The Illuminati SEVEN car has very excellent aerodynamics. Once the heavy car is rolling then that part of the equation has been reduced in significance if the aerodynamics are very good. They drove the whole way at a fixed speed to Jack's shop. <br /><br />This provided a constant, steady drain on the batteries with reduced drag due to excellent aerodynamics. With stop-and-go situations the weight becomes a very significant part of the equation. By taking a solid approach to a balanced equation you should be able to create a very nice EV with comfortable range.<br /><br />That being said, I have never built an EV or a car for that matter, so my statements are merely conjecture.<br /><br />-ChrisChristopher Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16715221604947738184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6676835811534572362.post-71811073730742203602011-08-15T23:22:18.525-05:002011-08-15T23:22:18.525-05:00Hey guys, Jack is not the only one in town here th...Hey guys, Jack is not the only one in town here that should be stepping up to the plate to do some testing. He already has his hands quite full. If I had the tools I'd test too. I am sure there are quite a few of you guys that should be. From my vantage point it seem as though there are many but maybe it is not as many as it sounds like. Maybe the pot is not nearly as full as it seems. <br /><br />(Dr. Righteous, The idea of trying to find a specific test you've done by scanning through every single video is a little nuts. )<br /><br />(A project for the interns perhaps?) Perhaps a perfect project for you! I second the motion. Well it looks like the job is yours. :) A small price to pay for the information you have gleaned from Jacks work. <br /><br />:)Pete McWadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08288980906309612950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6676835811534572362.post-24600773383821411052011-08-15T22:26:14.050-05:002011-08-15T22:26:14.050-05:00Oh wow, I didn't know the Mini was doing quite...Oh wow, I didn't know the Mini was doing quite that well. And there's very little aerodynamic about the Mini, it's pretty boxy.<br /><br />I know you guys are busy bees and I hate to suggest something that would add to the load, but...<br /><br />I think your site needs a repository of test results. "Rickard's Review," so to speak. You've tested so many different products over the years. The idea of trying to find a specific test you've done by scanning through every single video is a little nuts.<br /><br />A project for the interns perhaps?Dr. Righteoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07954877226583654920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6676835811534572362.post-12764467284210705882011-08-15T21:34:03.775-05:002011-08-15T21:34:03.775-05:00One of the illuminati's tricks is actually cer...One of the illuminati's tricks is actually ceramic bearings.<br /><br />I used to think air resistance was all. No more. The Mini Cooper does 0.85 Ah per mile at 80 miles an hour and about 1.10 Ah per mile in town. We run at a much lower RPM believe it or not at 80 mph due to the very high gearing. It's the only think I can think of. But does bear more testing.<br /><br />Yes, the aero factor could be determined more easily with the range test. If we could find a substantive route where we could do it at 20 mph, 30 mph, 40 mph 50 mph 60 mph and 70 mph continuous speeds in the same gear without any stops or speed variations, this would show aero very well.<br /><br />I'll think about that. To do all that you almost have to have no other cars around. I don't want to build a test track....<br /><br />Jack RickardJack Rickardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15936311474215791697noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6676835811534572362.post-31518146280662273052011-08-15T19:25:30.268-05:002011-08-15T19:25:30.268-05:00Ahh frack, someone beat me to it.Ahh frack, someone beat me to it.Dr. Righteoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07954877226583654920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6676835811534572362.post-2732898415296668102011-08-15T19:24:39.384-05:002011-08-15T19:24:39.384-05:00Didn't the SEVEN get much better mileage throu...Didn't the SEVEN get much better mileage through aerodynamics even though it was a much heavier car than the Speedsters?Dr. Righteoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07954877226583654920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6676835811534572362.post-71815156408980066562011-08-15T18:42:02.624-05:002011-08-15T18:42:02.624-05:00John,
Have a play with this tool at ecomodder.com...John,<br /><br />Have a play with this tool at ecomodder.com:<br /><br />http://ecomodder.com/forum/tool-aero-rolling-resistance.php<br /><br />It's a fun way to go through a load of permutations about weight, rolling resistance and drag. I'm not sure if it's so super accurate that you want to design a car with it, but I assume they used all the right equations to make it so it should be a good guide.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6676835811534572362.post-78087990414787252072011-08-15T16:20:25.539-05:002011-08-15T16:20:25.539-05:00Rolling resistance makes a linear deceleration. Ai...Rolling resistance makes a linear deceleration. Air resistance performs to the square law. So a simple push test with your bath scales will sort the RR out. Then one can subtract that linear figure from the rate of deceleration for air resistance.<br /><br />OOPS! sorry, I fell asleep thinking of all the other variables...<br /><br />WH/speed graph anyone?<br /><br />Nah! forget it. Just get the weight down with with sensible financial constraints and the minimum number of cells for it's maximum expected run. It's what I'm working to.Andyjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11910687437796998340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6676835811534572362.post-82998913766870084482011-08-15T15:39:32.700-05:002011-08-15T15:39:32.700-05:00Jack - bearing in mind the anomalous watt-hours pe...Jack - bearing in mind the anomalous watt-hours per-mile figure for the Illuminati 7, it might be that for maximum range reducing aerodynamic drag matters more than reducing weight. I'd like to suggest an experiment to verify or disprove this hypothesis:<br /><br />1. Do a few coast-down tests on each of your EVs. This should enable anyone with a sharp pencil to do an approximate estimate of aerodynamic drag and rolling resistance for the vehicle. For the open cars you could do it top-up and top-down.<br /><br />2. Get an intern to drive each of them to a point say) 80 miles away using a reasonable target cruising speed (say 65) and measure the watt-hours per mile.<br /><br />3. Publish the results on-line and invite crowd-sourced proposals for improvements to your current rule of thumb (watt-hours per mile equals 10% of weight in lbs )<br /><br />Not perfect but better than the data we currently have.John Hardyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08956389394911516375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6676835811534572362.post-87065772177748533552011-08-15T10:14:51.850-05:002011-08-15T10:14:51.850-05:00My comment cross-posted with Jack's.
His is m...My comment cross-posted with Jack's.<br /><br />His is more direct...Tom Alvaryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13138074813335115689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6676835811534572362.post-20395927363187746712011-08-15T10:13:51.608-05:002011-08-15T10:13:51.608-05:00Well, sort of. The goals are a little different, b...Well, sort of. The goals are a little different, because the road EV doesn't need the performance the racer is after.<br /><br />Take the brakes. Racers would go with 4 pot calipers, which are still lighter than a Ghia caliper, but have tons more stopping power. On an EV you want the lightest single pot caliper you can get away with, which for a lightened car with regen would be the minimum spec on the VW chassis, not a "racing" caliper. Jack's also talking about aluminum rotors, which might even be lighter than super-pricey carbon, but are marginal for durability and would not interest a racer other than maybe a drag racer.<br /><br />The racing community is where the lightweight parts are that need to be sourced, but an EV doesn't really need racing parts. <br /><br />The problem on the VW is its a pretty elegant design that's fairly light as manufactured. A drum brake front end from the 1940s is actually lighter than a disc setup from twenty years later. Huge weight savings just aren't there aside from the main body and chassis; only incremental ones that are seriously expensive to collect, as you basically have to replace everything on the car with something 20-40% lighter. There are some good places to look, though:<br /><br />1. Going from a beam to a strut (Superbeetle) front end, which saves a fair amount of weight and gets you R&P steering. It also gets you the notoriously finicky SB front suspension, which shimmys when worn, or out of adjustment, or equipped with the wrong tires or offset, or maybe just because...<br /><br />2. Going from torsion to coilover rear. This requires a Kafer bar and maybe some new rear arms, but its the hot setup for these cars. It will cost you some component room above the gearbox, though, and big bucks.<br /><br />3. A-arm front end conversion. Excellent suspension upgrade, but may not save any weight. I can't seem to find out from any of the three mfrs of these kits I have found if the units are actually lighter than a VW beam. I actually doubt it, particularly after you add all the steel structure they need to the pan to mount up. $3k+.<br /><br />4. Bespoke replacement chassis. That's what Special Editions is doing in Aluminum for the Rickard Edition Speedster EV. No one is doing it for the standard wheelbase Type 1 or 3 VW chassis, but there are steel tube chassis available that might be lighter than a VW pan (especially if they were designed as a-arm front and coilover rear to start) and are certainly stiffer and stronger than any pan. <br /><br />5. Interior. Carpets can be replaced with Ozite. Replacing vinyl and leather with cloth saves interior weight. C5 Corvette seats are said to be some of the lightest available, and there are always fiberglass buckets at about 10lbs each. <br /><br />After that, weight reduction is a painstaking process of looking at every big and small thing and making it lighter. Everything can be lighter- dashboard, pedals, steering wheel & column, handles, covers, latches, etc...<br /><br />Too often, I see conversions where the weight savings removing the ICE is blown with heavy angle iron, steel and diamond plate going back in the car to hold EV components. This is probably because it was available and strong, but its way too heavy for the application. The key is to have a weight budget for the project, and always be conscious of what everything on, and going onto the car weighs, from wiring to tubing and fasteners. It is so worth being obsessive about it during the conversion stage, because light cars don't just happen- it takes consistent attention to detail to get there- but the payback is real and forever.Tom Alvaryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13138074813335115689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6676835811534572362.post-79180173589157685322011-08-15T09:46:54.301-05:002011-08-15T09:46:54.301-05:00Dan:
As always, lost and thrashing about in the w...Dan:<br /><br />As always, lost and thrashing about in the weeds. The concept of weight reduction is to increase the percentage of the car mass devoted to batteries. Yes, obviously the batteries are the heavy things and so we could lose a LOT of weight by not only going to a more expensive battery, but by eliminating them entirely. This brings us in full concert with the copper foil helmet crowd. Duh.<br /><br />Evolution from race car to street car. No, I don't think that was the point I was trying to make, although I understand the confusion. I'm more in the camp of creature comforts. But what do I gain from a glass vs polycarbonate windshield (and they can be surprisingly heavy). How much creature comfort is in a solid steel cross drilled brake disk over an aluminum brake disk, particularly when I'm using Regen to brake most of the time?<br /><br />My point was that in making component selection choices for racing, the economics are somewhat different than for production cars - almost entirely due to weight. In racing, performance comes from building in lightness, increasing the power to weight ratio. So an aluminum rotor, continuing the example, might be worth twice as much as the steel one because it is lighter.<br /><br />We SHARE some degree of compatibility with the racing crowd. In electric cars, it is not increased performance necessarily but range. We're not so much interested in available POWER to weight as we are to available energy STORAGE to weight. If I have a 10kWh pack and use 300 wH per mile, I get 33.33 miles of range. If I can reduce weight to reduce my wH per mile to 200, my range goes to 50 miles.<br /><br />Obviously this holds true at higher pack sizes. A 30kw pack gets me 100 miles, and if I do the same weight reduction/wH per mile gig I get to 150 mile range instead of 100.<br /><br />And so the economic choices we would entertain for electric car design would probably more closely resemble those of the race community, and so that is probably where we would also find those parts. They are impractically expensive for repair of OEM vehicles, but economically viable for racing - and for electric cars as well in SOME cases.<br /><br />As we ran into on the Cobra, they are not IDENTICAL communities. Dan just couldn't imagine why I would want an external clutch slave cylinder over a smaller, lighter, simpler, internal slave cylinder. In racing, swapping one of those out on failure is a no brainer. For an electric car owner, it's pretty ugly. Fluid all over the clutch. Pull motor at least and maybe transmission to swap it out. In Dan's world, that's trivial. In ours, it's a pain in the ass. <br /><br />So on maintenance issues we diverge sharply. We actually went through this clutch discussion TWICE and I forgot what the reasoning was when confronted the second time. Mike Fortis was very good about explaining it to us AGAIN.<br /><br />Jack RickardJack Rickardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15936311474215791697noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6676835811534572362.post-4789799868441172082011-08-15T08:57:58.965-05:002011-08-15T08:57:58.965-05:00I seen an evolutionary pattern happening again fro...I seen an evolutionary pattern happening again from street car to race car. :)Pete McWadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08288980906309612950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6676835811534572362.post-19203493496490324042011-08-15T06:58:39.974-05:002011-08-15T06:58:39.974-05:00Are there any numbers out there on unit performanc...Are there any numbers out there on unit performance gained vs weight lost...quantification of what we know qualitatively?DanielYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04891967953137006871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6676835811534572362.post-44152239871277662242011-08-15T05:22:50.637-05:002011-08-15T05:22:50.637-05:00I like this new focus on weight reduction a lot. o...I like this new focus on weight reduction a lot. or perhaps I should say I hate it since you don't like agreeing with me :)<br />I like what I'm hearing about alu chassis, wheels and even lightening the fiberglass. the windshield wouldn't be my first place to look for weight but if the product is available and it works and you save weight then I'm all for the experiment.<br />maybe you could keep one of the speedsters to the old philosophy and only rewamp the one so you have a contrast of what is gained.<br /><br />as the final piece to a fully lightened speedster I'd suggest a 100kg pack of A123 20Ah cells, even though you pay a premium because A123 marketeers are morons, it is a relatively small pack so the bleeding is manageable by your standards.<br />how much battery weight do you have in the duh now? 200kg? the 100kg A123 will probably give you the same range as before lightening and you get another 100kg weight reduction. it's magic.<br /><br />and we know the A123s have the power with only 100kg. it might have 4x the power as before despite half the weight. <br />Brian can run next to the car, he weighs too much :)<br /><br />btw I read a disgusting interview with head of mercedes R&D the other day. he boasts that noone matches mercedes innovation. I could have sworn they were a little behind on EVs but what do I know. he also said that the combustion engine will be the mainstay of cars for decades still.<br />let's make that douche a liar.Dan Frederiksenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00506872737104553923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6676835811534572362.post-80697692312317465582011-08-14T22:43:57.731-05:002011-08-14T22:43:57.731-05:00I'd be for that .25 cent tax as well. Sounds g...I'd be for that .25 cent tax as well. Sounds great. Wait until it drops out and then go buy and wait till it rises again and then sell out and go build my next EV. <br /><br />Pete :)Pete McWadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08288980906309612950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6676835811534572362.post-55293059478446875082011-08-14T21:37:55.100-05:002011-08-14T21:37:55.100-05:00Well, I wasn't going to go so far as to predic...Well, I wasn't going to go so far as to predict what I think WOULD actually happen to the price of gasoline as it will cause a firestorm. But the speculative part of the oil market would collapse on announcement. Even though the "tax" starts out at 25 cents, the writing is on the wall and the price of oil would drop to $30 per barrel in the first week. This tax would essentially CUT the cost of fuel for the first five years. But the worldwide demand is growing exponentially, peak oil is probably very real, and within five years the price will have climbed back and beyond. But for a couple of years, I think it would actually cut the legs out of the oil market.<br /><br />Jack RickardJack Rickardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15936311474215791697noreply@blogger.com